This is a record of an interview with Bao Zheng, the legendary judge of the Song Dynasty, who sought Spiritual Deliverance at the Hsiang Kuang Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now resides in the Western Land of Nature. This account reflects upon his life approximately 964 years ago. Recorded by the chief writer, Venerable Shi Faru, on March 28, 2026.
Bao Zheng speaks:
". I am Bao Zheng, who once served as an official during the Song Dynasty. My name and my deeds have echoed through the corridors of history, often appearing in the folk operas and stories that have been passed down through countless generations. Many of you are familiar with the cases I presided over—the dramatic twists, the mysterious resolutions, and the unwavering pursuit of truth. Yet, as I look back from the vantage point of the Western Land of Dharma Nature, I must ask: behind the intrigue and the theatricality of those tales, has the world truly grasped the fundamental principles of integrity and uprightness? There is an ancient wisdom that states, 'Those who commit many unrighteous acts will surely bring about their own destruction.' This is not merely a proverb; it is a universal law, an immutable truth that has governed the cycle of cause and effect since time immemorial."
The Universal Principle of Justice
"In truth, every event that unfolds in this world is governed by hidden laws—the Law of Cause, Condition, and Effect. From the perspective of the universal principle, this is absolute and inescapable. It applies to the grandest affairs of state and the most intimate matters of our daily lives. When I served as an official, I did not consciously strive for the reputation of being 'noble' or 'incorruptible.' To serve the people, to ensure the prosperity of the local region, and to uphold the law—these were simply the fundamental duties of a local magistrate.
"However, the path of justice is rarely smooth. When faced with complex and tangled disputes, a judge must possess a standard of judgment that is profoundly calm and entirely independent of the various factions that seek to sway the outcome. One must be able to see through the fog of human deception to understand the truth of a case clearly and effectively. If a judge is swayed by outside forces, entangled in political cliques, or clouded by personal moral flaws and private emotions, the final verdict will inevitably deviate from the path of fairness. I was acutely aware that 'humans are not sages' and that even the most upright official finds it difficult to judge domestic disputes with perfect clarity. In those ancient times, the tools for gathering evidence were limited, and we lacked the modern means to verify the credibility of witness testimonies. I had to rely solely on my own impartial judgment, tempered by the weight of the responsibility I carried."
The Burden of Integrity
"All I could do was systematically eliminate the various factors that might influence my fair judgment. Therefore, I remained uncorrupted, stern, and strictly avoided private associations with anyone. This was not out of a desire for isolation, but a necessary defence to prevent various forces from intervening and influencing my decisions. I can say that I was very fortunate in my life to have served in the imperial court and to have been promoted. This was largely because the ruler at the time, Emperor Renzong of Song, was a wise and discerning monarch who allowed me the space to uphold the law without fear or favour."
"He possessed the rare wisdom to appoint individuals based solely on their merits, and he understood deeply that when I submitted my various strategies and impeachments, it was never for personal gain, but entirely for the sake of the country and the stability of the Great Song. Regarding the various corrupt officials who infested the court, I did not fear their power, their influence, or their threats. Such unwavering enforcement of the law was not merely my own doing; it stemmed from the collective support of the country and the people, as well as the steadfast backing of the Emperor and many righteous ministers who stood with me in the court. Only through such unity could I possess the authority to govern each region according to the strict principles of the law. The most famous cases, which have been passed down through the ages to the world, are those I presided over during my tenure at the Kaifeng Prefecture. Those were times of immense pressure, yet they were also times of profound clarity."
The Truth Behind the Legends
"The reason for my enduring fame is largely because I refused to bow to the power of various factions, and I tried my absolute best to make judgments that were entirely independent of their influence. Because these cases often involved the royal family and high-ranking officials, the complexity of their schemes and the sheer extent of their inhumanity were far more severe than in ordinary cases. When investigating and presiding over these matters, I always reminded myself to detach from my own subjective judgments and prejudices to truly understand the real face of a case. I had to look past the masks people wore. As for my own safety, I took it lightly. After all, if I could not uphold justice and ensure the laws of the Great Song were implemented, it would be better to die at the hands of rebels than to live in the court while harming the people. My life was a small price to pay for the integrity of the law."
"In truth, many of the operas and literary works of later generations are a mix of fact and fiction, with many dramatic stories added by playwrights as part of my legacy. However, this does not really matter to me. The most important thing is to pass on the philosophy I held while serving as an official: when serving in the court, one must be meticulous in observing even the smallest details regarding unrighteous acts. One cannot blindly seek to put people to death, as that does not conform to the Middle Way, but one must ensure that the law is clearly executed. Otherwise, if scholars do not fear the laws of the Song Dynasty and refuse to obey them, it will only cause more social chaos. Therefore, the intensity of law enforcement must be carefully calibrated. For those who are truly corrupt and have lost their humanity, the laws of the Great Song must be strictly enforced and the death penalty applied, so that the people can believe that the law has the power to be executed."
The Law and the Heart
"To make the people believe that the law is not something that can be exploited or used to harbor evil, but rather a system that determines life and death based on an individual’s actions and words, one must have a deterrent effect to prevent future generations from challenging the law. As for the saying that ‘it is difficult for an upright official to judge domestic disputes,’ if there are various factions involved and private interference, it is inevitable that the judgment will be biased. I saw this time and time again—the way greed can cloud a person's judgment until they can no longer see the truth. It is a tragedy of the human heart."
"Therefore, I did not associate closely with scholars, and I strictly ordered my descendants that if anyone were found to be corrupt, they would be expelled from the family. This was the fundamental requirement I chose and had to fulfill to maintain fair, just, and incorruptible judgments. Serving as an official, the greatest fear is corruption, so I was extremely strict with myself regarding the word ‘greed.’ I have seen how greed destroys not just a man, but an entire lineage. By keeping my own heart clean, I was able to serve the people of the Great Song with a clear conscience. Now, having found my way to the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre and having heard the teachings of Namo Amituofo, I realise that the laws of the world are but a shadow of the greater Law of Cause and Effect. Namo Amituofo."
In my daily life, I maintained only the most basic requirements, for I knew that the slightest indulgence could become a chink in my armour. If I had harboured excessive desires, it would have been all too easy for various forces—both seen and unseen—to cater to my preferences, to find those hidden loopholes, and to subtly influence my judgments. These were the things I was profoundly cautious about. Even after I was promoted to higher offices, I constantly reminded myself that having presided over so many high-ranking officials, I must never, under any circumstances, commit the same grievous mistakes they did. Otherwise, I would have become a soul under my own blade—would that not be the most bitter and ironic fate imaginable? To judge others while being shackled by one's own corruption is a darkness I could never permit to touch my spirit.
The Weight of the Gavel and the Mirror of Truth
After serving as a judge for so many years, I passed away in Kaifeng, the very city I governed, during a period of severe illness. When I passed, I did not drift into oblivion. Instead, I remained in the space where I had presided over cases in the Kaifeng Prefecture. It was as if the duty had been etched into my very essence. I became one of the judges in the ghost realm of the underworld. Although my status was not equal to that of the great Yama Kings, I served as a judge in the underworld for the entire Kaifeng and capital region, continuing to preside over cases of all sizes. In the underworld, just as in the human world, the situations are actually remarkably similar, though the stakes are far more absolute.
People in the human world have their own petty concerns, their own selfish agendas, and if they violate the law due to human-centred thinking and are executed, the same principle applies in the underworld. However, the laws of the underworld are not merely written statutes; they are the 'Underworld Laws,' which are, in truth, the universal principles of the cosmos. If one violates these universal principles, it is not a matter of what the law prescribes in a book, but a natural, inescapable necessity to repay the . It requires one to suffer in the hells, to endure the consequences of their own actions until the debt is settled. After the term of punishment is over, one is transferred elsewhere, but the mark of that experience remains.
The Unforgiving Clarity of Universal Law
This is where the underworld differs so starkly from judgments in the human world. In the human world, it is often difficult to make precise judgments due to insufficient information, the limitations of human perception, and the fallibility of witnesses. Sometimes, the intensity and focus of a judgment vary wildly due to the judge’s subjective discretion or personal bias. However, in the trials of the underworld, every little detail is rendered with terrifying, crystalline clarity. Even the slightest mental note, the briefest flicker of greed, or the smallest fluctuation of intent at the exact moment of the crime is completely recorded and explained in the most detailed, undeniable manner. There is no hiding from the truth there. This is the profound difference in how cases are judged in the underworld; it is a trial by one's own conscience, laid bare before the universe.
The duration of the punishment depends entirely on whether one has realised their mistake and is truly willing to repent. If one is stubborn, insists that they are not wrong, or constantly complains about heaven and others, finding endless reasons and excuses, then no amount of reasoning can reduce the sentence. The universal principle is exactly this: every single bit of what one has created must be repaid by oneself. This is true in both karma and nature. The sentence in hell is determined the moment the sin is committed, the moment there is no remorse in the heart. Some who are punished have repented, or after suffering extreme pain in hell, they finally become willing to wake up to the truth. However, most sinners do not have such thoughts, nor can they understand where they went wrong. Only in the midst of constant, searing pain might a trace of genuine remorse arise. This is the phenomenon I have witnessed in the underworld for many years.
A Witness to the Modern Decay of the Human Heart
As time passes, one can see that the degree of malice in modern human nature is even worse than in the past. For me, this is truly astonishing; I never imagined that the human heart could mutate to such a degree of coldness and calculated cruelty. In the past, crimes were often born of desperation or sudden passion, but today, there is a chilling, systematic disregard for the Law of Cause and Effect. It is as if humanity has forgotten that every thought, every word, and every action is a seed that will inevitably bear fruit. I have seen souls arrive from the modern world whose hearts are so hardened by ego and technological detachment that they cannot even perceive the suffering they have caused others. It is a tragedy of immense proportions.
Having witnessed the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre and having heard the teachings of Namo Amituofo, I realise that the laws of the world are but a shadow of the greater Law of Cause and Effect. The only way out of this cycle of suffering, this endless samsara of judgment and retribution, is through the compassionate deliverance of Namo Amituofo. I have seen the light of the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss, and it is the only refuge for a soul weary of the darkness of the underworld. Namo Amituofo.
When I reflect upon the cases I presided over in the past—those legendary stories and public records that have been passed down through the ages—it becomes painfully clear that even the most notorious villains of antiquity were driven by a different kind of malice. Those ancient transgressors often acted out of a singular, selfish obsession, which, while heinous by the standards of their time, was often confined to specific grievances or personal vendettas. Yet, when I observe the nature of the evil that permeates the modern world, I am struck by how commonplace and pervasive it has become. It is as if the very fabric of human morality has thinned. Today, it seems that as long as there is a potential for personal gain, people will stop at nothing, regardless of the suffering they inflict upon others. This shift is truly terrifying to witness. If the modern human world has descended into such a state of moral decay, one can only imagine the intensity and the agonizing duration of the punishments that await these souls in the underworld. The karmic debt they accumulate is far heavier and far more complex than that of those who entered the halls of judgment in centuries past.
The Escalation of Modern Greed
This tragic state of affairs is the inevitable consequence of a society that has turned its back on the Law of Cause and Effect and the universal principles that govern all existence. If humanity could only grasp the fundamental truths of the universe and understand the necessity of maintaining a moral foundation, they would not be so quick to abandon their conscience for the sake of fleeting, material benefits. I have served in the underworld and the ghost realm for nearly a thousand years, and throughout that long, dark tenure, I have heard whispers of the Buddha’s teachings. I have known, in the abstract, of their profound importance. However, it is a great pity that so few in the world today take the time to sing the praises of these teachings or to propagate them with sincerity. Without the wisdom of the ancient sages and the guiding light of the Buddha’s teachings, it becomes nearly impossible for people to remain law-abiding, to cultivate virtue, or to contribute to the well-being of their fellow beings.
The Light of the Buddha’s Teachings
In the last decade, however, a shift has occurred. The Buddha’s teachings have begun to circulate once more in the world, which is a source of immense for both the underworld and the human realm. Education is the key; with the right guidance, people can avoid the pitfalls of wrong behavior and spare themselves the excruciating suffering that comes from creating such heavy karmic sins. The influx of these True Teachings is a direct result of the compassionate work being done at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia, under the guidance of Namo Amituofo and the dedicated salvation team led by Practitioner Su. The scriptures and the profound Dharma talks delivered by Practitioner Su have become legendary within the spirit realms. Many beings in the ghost realm now listen to Practitioner Su’s teachings whenever they can, and in doing so, they have begun to develop a heart of genuine repentance. Understanding the Buddha’s teachings allows them to finally realize the gravity of their past actions, leading them to abandon their wicked ways and seek a path of transformation. This is not only a salvation for them but a profound service to the human world as well.
A New Home in the Dharma-Nature Land
I am currently overseeing matters in the Henan region of China, where I have served as a judge in the underworld for a very long time. My days were once filled with an endless stream of cases, both large and small, requiring me to preside over the fates of countless souls. I spent my time counseling those in the spirit realm, always hoping that they might eventually come into contact with the Buddha’s teachings and the name of Namo Amituofo. Just a few months ago, a brilliant, golden light descended from above, piercing through the layers of darkness and opening up my underworld courtroom in Henan. At that precise moment, I perceived that my opportunity for liberation had finally matured. My long term of service in the underworld had reached its conclusion, and the path to the Western Land of Dharma Nature was open to me. I followed that golden light, leaving the shadows behind, and entered the Western Land of Dharma Nature.
Looking back on my past life and the long, weary days of presiding over trials in the ghost realm and the underworld, I cannot help but sigh. In truth, why is it even necessary for a judge to preside over such trials? It is only because people commit mistakes and lack the wisdom to repent; they have lost the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and thus, a judge is required to make the difficult decisions for them. Now, having transcended that cycle, I see the world with different eyes. I am grateful beyond words for the deliverance I have received, and I remain committed to the path of Namo Amituofo, forever thankful for the light that guided me home.
The Root of All Disorder
When I served as an official, I brought many social disorders to light and corrected them. Behind these public cases, many people only cared about how the powerful and wealthy were not following the law and how they abused their status and identity to violate the laws of the Song Dynasty, and how I broke these disorders one by one. But let me tell you, the problems of the human world are equal for both the commoner and the powerful. The fundamental problem for everyone is that they do not believe in the laws of karma and cause and effect. They do not believe that doing things against their conscience will be punished. The reckoning of cause and effect is many times clearer, more precise, and more inevitable than any human law. However, people do not believe in reincarnation and do not know that their actions today will eventually return to them as retribution. Although we do not know when it will happen, everything we encounter now is the return of what we created in the past or in past lives. If everyone could truly understand this principle, why would they risk breaking the law and creating immeasurable and boundless karma? It is a tragedy of ignorance, a cycle that keeps us trapped in the darkness of our own making.
The Inescapable Law of Karma
Listening to the teachings in the for these past few days, I truly admire the vastness of the Buddha’s teachings; it is truly far beyond the law and judgment of men. When I served as an official, I was clean and self-disciplined, maintaining a cool head just for the sake of fair judgment. However, the fairness of the Buddha’s teachings is even greater. In the face of cause and effect, all things are equal. Only the education of the Buddha’s teachings can wake people up from the Five Turbidities and Evil World, make them understand that everything in this world is an illusion, and understand that this body is fake. There is no need to commit crimes for the sake of this fake body, or even to face each other in court. If one is judged and feels unfair, the cycle continues, and there is no end to the suffering in the hells. I have seen the depths of that suffering, and it is a place where no official, no matter how righteous, can offer true salvation. Only the of Namo Amituofo can reach into those dark places and pull a soul back into the light.
The True Value of Life
Think about it—what is the true value of this life? We spend our days chasing shadows, fighting over land, status, and wealth, all for a body that will eventually return to dust. We drag our with us, life after life, locked in a cycle of vengeance and retribution. But the Buddha’s light offers a way out. It offers a path to liberation that no judge on earth can provide. I have seen the truth now, and I am humbled. I am grateful beyond words for the deliverance I have received, and I remain committed to the path of Namo Amituofo, forever thankful for the light that guided me home. My heart is finally at peace, knowing that the struggles of the past are behind me, and that the infinite compassion of the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss is the only reality that truly matters. Namo Amituofo."
"Think about it—human law is like a thin layer of ice over a deep, turbulent river. It can hold a person up for a moment, but it cannot stop the currents of karma beneath. When I sat upon the judge’s bench, I believed I was the arbiter of truth. I believed that my gavel could silence the chaos of the world. But how wrong I was! How terribly, tragically wrong!
In fact, if one truly accepts the Buddha’s teachings, people can be law-abiding from the bottom of their hearts, rather than just on the surface. Human laws can only restrain people on the surface, while the Buddha’s teachings can educate people to change their character and avoid creating boundless sins based on their own personality and emotions. When I was alive, I was known for being impartial. People whispered my name with respect, calling me a fair man. But impartiality is a fragile thing. It is not merely about listening to both sides; it is about seeing the very soul of the conflict. To have a truly fair judgment, one must possess a wisdom that transcends the human mind—a wisdom I lacked. I had to grasp every detail, every nuance, every hidden motive, and yet, I was blinded by my own ego. I was blinded by my own subjective judgments. I thought I was serving justice, but in reality, I was often just adding fuel to the fire of samsara.
The Illusion of the Gavel
In this regard, I did not do enough. In presiding over many cases, when I encountered insufficient information and had to make my own decisions, I still had my own subjective judgments. That is why I attracted a large number of spiritual attachments in my later years. I felt them, you know—those cold, clinging shadows that haunted my chambers. I thought they were just the stress of the office, the exhaustion of a long career. I never realised they were the karmic creditors I had failed to see, the souls who felt wronged by my 'impartial' rulings. It is a terrifying thing to realise, too late, that your life’s work has been a tapestry of misunderstanding.
Now, looking back from the Dharma-Nature Land, I realise that even with the most noble and selfless approach, if there is the slightest subjectivity in the judgment that violates the universal principles, it still interferes with the karmic entanglements between the two parties. As a judge, I also had to bear such consequences. If I had the education of the Buddha’s teachings at that time, I could have clearly understood that the crux of the matter between the two parties was nothing more than a false illusion. If I could have regained my original nature and understood the true thoughts in others’ hearts, I would not have been deceived by the appearances. Through heart-to-heart communication between the two parties, I could have made more precise judgments. However, for me at that time, this was something I had never heard of. I never thought that ‘mind-Dharma’ could be used to preside over cases, restore people’s innocence, and put both parties at ease. This was something I had never thought of—it was a door I didn't even know existed.
The Weight of Unseen Attachments
Listening to the teachings in the Dharma-Nature Land for several days, I also realised that the Buddha’s teachings require one to let go of all conditions. Even if there is the slightest bit that one cannot let go of, it will affect one’s destination after death. I must have been too attached to presiding over cases and making judgments, thinking that this was the true way to serve the people. I held onto my title, my robes, and my authority as if they were my own skin. But what are these things in the face of the infinite? They are dust. They are smoke. I did not know that even if there were many correct judgments in the human world, one still could not escape reincarnation. Even if one spoke many principles and persuaded many people, it is not as meaningful as helping people escape this worldly realm and helping them be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is my deepest realisation in the Dharma-Nature Land—a realisation that has washed away the pride of my former life.
Looking back at the various judgments I made, although fair judgments brought people trust in the law, the effect of ‘killing the chicken to warn the monkey’ made people fear and respect the law on the surface, but they did not fundamentally change their character and behaviour from the heart, nor did they truly understand the universal principles. Truly putting in the work from the heart, changing one’s every word and action, and even becoming a law-abiding citizen of the Great Song from the bottom of one’s heart is much more meaningful than going to the government office to file a complaint and then being forced to accept it. I can say that I perfectly realised the limited methods of the human world to preside over cases, and I also interpreted how to be a good official and an upright official to serve the people. But I was a blind man leading the blind, and for that, I am eternally grateful to the Buddha for showing me the light.
The True Nature of Governance
Think about it—if a judge could see the karmic roots of a dispute, would he even need a gavel? If he could see the suffering that drove a man to theft, or the greed that drove a man to deceit, he would not need to punish; he would need to heal. That is the true governance of the Dharma. It is not about retribution; it is about liberation. I spent my life in the courtroom, surrounded by the smell of old paper and the cold, hard stares of the accused, never knowing that the real courtroom was within my own heart. I am finally at peace, knowing that the struggles of the past are behind me, and that the infinite compassion of the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss is the only reality that truly matters. Namo Amituofo."
Yet, what Practitioner Su has truly realised is the supreme, ultimate method of Namo Amituofo. It is a method that genuinely rescues sentient beings, allowing them to discover the profound, eternal value of life while they still draw breath, and to secure a true, everlasting home—the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss—once their physical existence concludes. This is the very root and the absolute foundation of the Buddha’s teachings. It is far more meaningful, far more significant, than merely being an upright or virtuous official in the human world. Think about it—no matter how incorruptible or how wise an official may be, they still cannot help the people escape the endless cycle of reincarnation. Even if one lives their entire life strictly according to the highest moral principles, one still remains utterly lost, not knowing where they will drift after death. Therefore, what the human world truly, desperately needs is not just a local official who can judge principles clearly; what it needs is a team that can truly follow the Pure Land education of Namo Amituofo, operate in accordance with the Dharma, and actively promote the teachings of the Buddha. Such a team is the true beacon that people need in these dark times.
A Final Plea from the Beyond
I am now merely a spirit, and I no longer possess the opportunity to serve the people of the Song Dynasty. In truth, the Song Dynasty has passed into the mists of history for a thousand years, and a thousand years is but a fleeting blink of an eye when viewed from the perspective of the various spaces and dimensions. The cases that are being argued about in your world today, no matter how complex or how heated the debates may be, are nothing more than passing clouds. No matter how meticulously they are investigated, it only serves to increase one’s attachments and entanglements. People in the world always regard me as an icon of fairness and justice, and they worship me as the God of Justice. However, the universal principles operate naturally, with a precision that does not allow for the slightest deviation. Yet, so many people do not truly believe in the Law of Cause and Effect, do not believe in the depth of morality, and instead, they worship me, Bao Zheng, as a deity of justice. If you truly believe in my impartiality, are you also willing to believe in the universal principles and the ironclad Law of Cause and Effect that I speak of?
The Only Law That Matters
The Truth and the righteous path are the fundamental laws that govern the entire universe. Only if people can truly be law-abiding—not just to human statutes, but to the cosmic laws of the Buddha—can they have a secure place in this universe. And the final destination of this spirit must also follow the true universal principles, which is the Buddha’s teachings of Namo Amituofo, to give the spirit a good home and be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is my heartfelt, earnest advice to you all. Serving as an official for decades, what I could truly do to help society was only to make people believe that there are still laws and systems to follow in this world. But in fact, these human laws and systems cannot help people solve the fundamental, agonising problems of birth, aging, sickness, and death. I certainly could not bring this profound concept to everyone when I was alive, but I have now learned the Buddha’s teachings, so it depends on whether you are willing to believe me once more.
The above is my experience as I speak from the Western Dharma-Nature Land. I am eternally grateful to Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su for giving me this precious opportunity to counsel the people of the world. Namo Amituofo. Bao Zheng”
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