This is a record of an interview with Bao Zheng, the legendary judge of the Song Dynasty, who sought at the Hsiang Kuang Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now resides in the Western Land of Nature. This account reflects upon his life approximately 964 years ago. Recorded by the chief writer, Venerable Shi Faru, on March 28, 2026.
Bao Zheng speaks:
". I am Bao Zheng, who once served as an official during the Song Dynasty.
My story is one that most people are familiar with. These tales have been passed down through the generations, and many of my famous cases have been adapted into folk operas and plays. It is true that the process of solving these cases was often complex and shrouded in mystery. But behind these intriguing stories and dramatic turns, I wonder—does everyone truly understand the principles of how to conduct oneself in life and the importance of being upright and incorruptible? There is an ancient truth that remains unchanged: 'Those who commit many injustices will surely bring about their own destruction.'"
The Burden of the Iron-Faced Judge
"This means that everything in the universe operates according to its own inherent laws and principles. This is true from the perspective of the universal principle, and it is equally true in our daily lives and in the various affairs of the people. When I served as an official, I did not intentionally seek the reputation of being 'noble' or 'pure.' Serving the civilians and bringing prosperity to the local people was simply the fundamental duty of a local magistrate. When faced with complex, tangled cases, one must naturally possess a standard of judgment that is calm and independent of all factions to understand the truth of the situation clearly and effectively.
If one is interfered with by other forces or different political factions, or if one is burdened by moral flaws or personal sentiments, the final judgment will inevitably deviate from fairness and justice. However, I also knew that 'no one is a sage' and that 'even an honest official finds it difficult to settle family disputes.' I was not always able to grasp the full truth of every case with one hundred percent certainty. In ancient times, the collection of evidence was extremely limited, and there were no auxiliary tools to judge the credibility of witness testimonies; I had to rely solely on my own independent judgment.
All I could do was eliminate the various factors that might influence my impartial judgment. That is why I lived a life of simplicity, rarely smiled, and did not engage in private socialising with anyone. I did this to strictly prevent various forces from intervening and affecting my decisions. I was very fortunate in my life to serve in the imperial court and to be promoted. This meant that the ruler at the time, Emperor Renzong of Song, was indeed a wise monarch.
He knew how to recognise talent and understood that my various suggestions, strategies, and impeachments were genuinely for the sake of the country. I did not fear the power or influence of corrupt officials. This powerful enforcement of the law came from the support of the country and the people. With the backing of the Emperor and the support of many upright ministers and righteous men in the court, I was able to exercise such authority and govern the various regions in accordance with the law. The cases I handled during my time at the Kaifeng Prefecture are the most famous and have been passed down through history.
The reason for this fame is largely because I did not fear the power of any faction and strove to make judgments independent of their influence. Because these cases often involved royalty and high-ranking officials, the complexity of their schemes and the degree to which they abandoned their humanity were far more severe than in ordinary cases. When investigating and presiding over these trials, I always reminded myself to step outside my own subjective judgments and prejudices to truly understand the face of the case. As for my own safety, I took it lightly. After all, if I could not uphold justice and ensure the laws of the Song Dynasty were carried out, then rather than living in the court and harming the people, it would be better to die at the hands of rebels."
Human Law versus Universal Truth
"Many of the plays and literary works of later generations are a mixture of truth and fiction, woven into the fabric of my life story. However, this does not really matter. The most important thing is that the philosophy I held while serving as an official is passed on: when serving in government, one must be meticulous and observant regarding matters of injustice. One cannot simply be bent on putting people to death—that does not conform to the Middle Way—but one must ensure that the law is clearly executed. Otherwise, if scholars do not fear the laws of the Song Dynasty and refuse to comply, it will only lead to more social chaos. Therefore, the intensity of law enforcement must be carefully balanced.
For those who are truly corrupt, lawless, and have lost their humanity, the laws of the Song Dynasty must be strictly enforced and the ultimate penalty applied so that the people can believe that the law has real power. We must make the people believe that the law is not something that can be manipulated or used to shelter evil, but that it will judge based on an individual's actions, words, and deeds, leading to a verdict of life or death. This serves as a necessary warning to others, preventing future generations from challenging the law. As for the saying that 'even an honest official finds it difficult to settle family disputes,' if there is involvement from various factions and private interference, it is inevitable that the judgment will be biased.
That is why I did not socialise with scholars, and I strictly ordered my descendants that if anyone were to be corrupt, they would be expelled from the family. This was the fundamental requirement I chose and had to uphold to maintain fairness, justice, and integrity. In government, the greatest fear is corruption. Therefore, regarding this 'greed,' I held myself to very strict standards.
If I only maintained the most basic requirements in my daily life, and if I had excessive desires, it would be easy for various forces to cater to my interests or find loopholes, thereby influencing my judgments. This was something I was always extremely cautious about. Even after I was promoted, I reminded myself that having judged so many high-ranking officials, I must never commit the same mistakes they did. Otherwise, I would become a soul under my own blade—would that not be incredibly ironic?
After serving as a judge for so many years, I fell into a great illness and passed away in the Kaifeng I had governed. After I passed, I remained in the space where I had judged cases in the Kaifeng Prefecture.
I became one of the judges in the ghost realm. Although my status was not equal to that of Yama, I served as a judge in the underworld for the entire Kaifeng and capital region, continuing to preside over various cases. In the underworld, the situation is actually very similar to the human world.
People in the human world have their own concerns, and if they use human-centric thinking to violate the law and are executed, the same applies in the underworld. However, the law of the underworld is actually the 'Underworld Law,' which is what we call the universal principle.
If one violates the universal principle, it is not just a matter of what the law dictates; it is a natural necessity to repay such , and therefore one must go to the hells to suffer punishment. After the term of punishment is over, one is then transferred elsewhere.
This is somewhat different from judgments in the human world. In the human world, it is often difficult to make precise judgments due to a lack of information, and sometimes the intensity of the sentence and the focus of the judgment vary due to the judge's subjective discretion. However, in the trials of the underworld, every little detail is extremely clear. Even every single mental note and fluctuation of the mind at the moment of the crime is completely recorded and explained in the most detailed manner. This is the difference in how cases are judged in the underworld.
The duration of the punishment depends on whether one has realised their mistake and is willing to repent. If one is stubborn, insists that they were not wrong, or constantly complains about heaven and blames others, finding numerous reasons and excuses, then no amount of reasoning can reduce the term of punishment.
The universal principle is just like this: every single bit of what one has created, down to the smallest fraction, must be repaid by oneself. This is true in both the laws of karma and cause and effect and in nature. The duration of the punishment in the hells is decided the moment the sin is committed, the moment there is no remorse in the heart. Some who are being punished have repented, or after suffering the extreme pains of the hells, they become willing to wake up. However, most sinners do not have such thoughts, nor can they understand where they went wrong. Only in the midst of constant suffering might a tiny spark of remorse arise. This is the phenomenon I have seen in the underworld for many years. However, as time has passed, I can see that the degree of malice in modern human nature is even worse than in the past. For me, this is truly astonishing. I never imagined that the human heart could mutate to such a degree.
In the cases I judged in the past, even in the famous stories and public cases recorded and passed down to later generations, one could see that even with such wicked character, the extent was only like the villains in those stories—acting for their own selfish interests, which was considered heinous at the time.
However, those evil thoughts and wicked character traits seem to be ordinary occurrences for people in the modern world. It seems that anywhere, as long as it can benefit them or be of help to them, they can use any means necessary. This truly fills me with fear. If the human world is like this today, then you can understand that the intensity and duration of the punishments they will face in the hells after death will be far longer and heavier than those who entered the hells in earlier times."
Namo Amituofo."
This state of affairs is precisely the result of a profound ignorance regarding the laws of the universe and the universal principles. If people were able to recognize these universal principles and understand how to uphold moral foundations, they would not resort to unscrupulous means or do whatever they wanted simply for their own benefit. Having served in the underworld and the ghost realm for nearly a thousand years, I had actually heard of and understood the importance of the Buddha’s teachings long ago. However, it is a great pity that there were so few people in the world who were still propagating and upholding the True Teachings.
Without the education provided by the ancient sages, and without the guidance of Buddhist education, it becomes incredibly difficult for people to abide by the law, serve the public interest, and truly benefit the civilians.
The Light of the Dharma in the Spirit Realm
In the last decade, the Buddha’s teachings have once again begun to spread throughout the world. For both the spirit realm and the human world, this is a cause for great . After all, with proper education, everyone can avoid many erroneous behaviors and will not have to suffer the consequences of creating such heavy sins. The influx of these True Teachings comes from the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia, from Namo Amituofo, and from the salvation team led by Practitioner Su. The scriptures and Dharma talks delivered by Practitioner Su are incredibly famous in the spirit realm. Many beings in the spirit realm listen to Practitioner Su’s Dharma talks at every moment, and through this, they have given rise to a heart of repentance.
Once they understand the Buddha’s teachings, they realize that what they did during their lives was so wrong and outrageous, and they subsequently give rise to a heart of repenting and changing their ways. This is also of immense help to the beings in the human world. As for me, I am currently in the Henan region of China, serving as a judge in the underworld.
A Judge’s Reflection on Justice
There are so many cases of all sizes that require adjudication. At the same time, I am constantly guiding the beings in the spirit realm, hoping that they can come into contact with the Buddha’s teachings and Namo Amituofo. Just a few months ago, a brilliant golden light shone down. This golden light penetrated through various spaces and opened up my space for judging cases in the underworld in Henan. At that moment, I perceived that my opportunity had matured; my term of service in the underworld had concluded, and I was able to ascend to the Western Land of Dharma Nature. As I followed that golden light into the Western Land of Dharma Nature and looked back upon my past life, as well as the days spent adjudicating cases in the ghost realm and the underworld, it truly filled me with deep emotion and reflection. In truth, why is it even necessary to have a judge to pass sentence?
It is only because people commit wrongs without knowing how to repent, and without knowing the difference between right and wrong, that a judge is required to make a determination. However, if there were Buddhist education and the moral education of the ancient sages, allowing people to understand in their hearts what can be done and what cannot be done, would there even be a need to reach the final legal procedures of a judicial trial?
The Root of Social Disorder
This implies that the vast majority of people do not generally understand morality or the universal principles, nor do they know the consequences of violating these universal principles. This is, in fact, the true fundamental cause. If one could start from these aspects, the number of unnecessary trials would be drastically reduced.
If people could spontaneously abide by the universal principles, they would naturally not violate the laws of the imperial court, nor would they harm others. By reducing many conflicts, one would naturally not need to expend a massive amount of manpower and resources to adjudicate various complex cases. In truth, when I, Bao Zheng, was an official in the imperial court, I brought many social disorders to light and then corrected them.
Behind the fame of these public cases, many people were only concerned with how the powerful and wealthy were acting in ways that were not in accordance with the Dharma, and how they abused their status and position to violate the laws of the Song Dynasty, and how I, Bao Zheng, broke through these disorders one by one. However, regarding the problems of the human world, everyone is equal, whether they are a commoner or a member of the nobility. The most fundamental problem for everyone is that they do not believe in the laws of karma and cause and effect, and they do not believe that doing things against their conscience will result in punishment. The reckoning of karma is far more precise and clear than any human law.
The Truth of Reincarnation
Yet, people do not believe in reincarnation; they do not know that their actions today will eventually return to them as retribution. Although they do not know when it will happen, everything they encounter now is the return of the various things they created in their past lives.
If everyone could understand this principle, why would they risk breaking the law and create immeasurable and boundless karma? After listening to the Dharma for several days in the Western Land of Dharma Nature, I truly admire the vastness of the Buddha’s teachings; it is truly far beyond the scope of laws and judicial verdicts.
While serving as an official in the world, I could be said to have kept myself clean and self-disciplined, maintaining a cool head solely for the sake of impartial judgment. However, the impartiality of the Buddha’s teachings is even greater than this. Before the laws of karma, all things are equal. Only the education of the Buddha can awaken people from this Five Turbidities and Evil World, helping them understand that everything in this world is an illusion, and that this body is false. There is no need to commit crimes or go to court for the sake of this false body.
The True Path to Deliverance
If one is judged and feels a sense of injustice, the cycle continues, and one will suffer in the hells without end. In reality, if one truly accepts Buddhist education, people can learn to abide by the law from the bottom of their hearts, rather than just on the surface. Human laws can only constrain people superficially, but the Buddha’s teachings can educate people to change their character, avoiding the creation of boundless sins based on their own personality and emotions.
When I was alive, I was known for being impartial and incorruptible. However, impartiality is one thing, but a truly just verdict requires a complete grasp of all the details of a case, being as objective as possible, and setting aside personal subjective judgment. In this regard, I truly did not do enough.
In the process of adjudicating many cases, when I encountered insufficient information and had to make a decision on my own, I still relied on my own subjective judgment. That is why, in my later years, I attracted a large number of spiritual attachments. Now, as I look back from the Western Land of Dharma Nature, I realize that even the most noble and selfless approach, if there is the slightest subjectivity in the verdict that violates the universal principles, still interferes with the karmic entanglements between the two parties. As a judge, I had to bear the consequences of such results. If I had had the benefit of Buddhist education at that time, I could have understood clearly that the crux of the conflict between the two parties was nothing more than a false illusion. If I could have regained my original nature and understood the true thoughts in others' hearts, I would not have been deceived by the appearances of the matter. Through heart-to-heart communication, I could have made much more precise judgments.
However, for the Bao Zheng of that time, this was something I had never heard of. I had never imagined that the Heart Dharma could be used to adjudicate cases, to restore the innocence of the people, and to put both parties at ease. This was something I had never considered.
A Final Plea to the World
After listening to the Dharma for several days in the Western Land of Dharma Nature, I have also come to understand that in the Buddha’s teachings, one must let go of all conditions. Even if there is the slightest thing one cannot let go of, it will affect one’s destination after passing away.
I must have been too attached to the act of judging and passing sentences, believing that this was the only way to truly serve the people. Yet, I did not know that even if there were many correct verdicts in the human world, it would still be impossible to escape the cycle of reincarnation. Even if I spoke of many principles and persuaded many people, it could not compare to the significance of helping people escape this worldly realm and helping them be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss.
This is my most profound realization in the Western Land of Dharma Nature. Looking back at the various verdicts I made, although impartial judgments brought people trust in the law, the effect of killing the chicken to warn the monkey only made people fear and respect the law on the surface. It did not fundamentally change their character and behavior from the heart, nor did they truly understand the universal principles.
Truly putting in the work from the heart, changing one’s every word and action, and becoming a law-abiding citizen of the Song Dynasty from the bottom of one’s heart is far more meaningful than going to the yamen to file a complaint and being forced to accept a verdict. I can be said to have perfectly realized the limited methods of the human world to adjudicate cases, and I interpreted how to be a good official and an incorruptible official to serve the civilians.
However, what Practitioner Su has realized is the ultimate method of Namo Amituofo. It is a method that truly helps the beings in the human world, allowing them to find the true value of life while they are alive, and to have a true home—the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss—after they die. This is the true root and foundation of the Buddha’s teachings.
This is far more meaningful than being an incorruptible or good official in the human world. After all, no matter how incorruptible or good an official is, they still cannot help people escape the cycle of reincarnation. Even if one lives a life that is perfectly in accordance with the law, one still does not know where one will go after death.
Therefore, what the human world truly needs is not a local official who can judge principles clearly, but a team that can truly follow the education of Namo Amituofo’s Pure Land, operate accordingly, and actively promote Buddhist education. Such a team is what people truly need.
I, Bao Zheng, am now just a spirit, and I no longer have the opportunity to serve the people of the Song Dynasty.
In fact, a thousand years have passed since the Song Dynasty, and a thousand years is but a blink of an eye for the various spaces. The cases that were once argued so fiercely, no matter how complex, are now just passing clouds. Investigating them clearly only increases one's attachments. People in the world have always regarded me as an image of fairness and justice, honoring me as the God of Justice. However, the universal principles operate naturally without the slightest deviation. Yet, many people do not believe in the laws of karma and cause and effect, and they do not believe in morality. If you honor me, Bao Zheng, as the God of Justice and truly believe in my impartiality, are you also willing to believe in the universal principles and the laws of karma that I speak of now?
The True Teachings of the Truth are the laws that operate throughout the universe. Only when people can truly abide by the law can they have a place in this universe. The destination of the spirit must also follow the true universal principles—that is, the Buddha’s teachings of Namo Amituofo—to give the spirit a good home and be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss.
These are the heartfelt words of Bao Zheng. Having served as an official for decades, the only thing I could truly do to help society was to make people believe that there are still laws and systems in this world to follow. But in reality, these legal systems cannot help people solve the fundamental problems of birth, aging, sickness, and death.
I truly could not bring this concept to everyone when I was alive, but I have now learned the Buddha’s teachings. It is now up to you whether you are willing to believe in Bao Zheng once more.
The above is my interview in the Western Land of Dharma Nature, where I have briefly shared my experiences with everyone. I am grateful to Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su for giving me this opportunity to counsel the people of the world.
Namo Amituofo.
Bao Zheng
IN THIS COLLECTION
More from Twelve Rays Deliverance to China (Chinese Historical Figures)
