This is a record of an interview with the renowned poet Bai Juyi, who sought at the Hsiang Kuang Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now resides in the . This account reflects upon his life during the Tang Dynasty. Recorded by the chief writer, Shi Faru, on March 27, 2026.
Bai Juyi speaks:
"Life is short, passing in mere decades; the fortunes of home and country are long gone. I counselled the world through a thousand poems, yet I remained trapped within the cycle of samsara, unable to find my way out.
My life was filled with all manner of irrationality and deep sighs. I poured my heart into poetry as a way to cope with the world. When my remonstrances were ignored by the court, I had no choice but to entrust my thoughts to verse, leaving them for future generations. If the court had only listened, if they could have learned of the suffering of the common people through my words, would I have ever needed to use poetry to offer advice to society? That was the true, aching cry of my heart in my early years.
A Life of Unspoken Grievances
I wrote thousands of poems in my lifetime, and they were not easily forgotten. This sheer volume signifies that the world was full of chaos and injustice, all waiting to be corrected. If we were in the midst of war, with suffering everywhere and people unable to survive, it might have been understandable. But the great Tang Empire, which claimed to be the supreme nation under Heaven, was rotting from within despite its golden exterior. It has always been this way since ancient times. What was missing was honest counsel for the nation. Scholars held their positions but failed to plan for the state; when they did speak, it was meant as a direct remonstrance, seeking only for the people to live in peace and prosperity. During my early years in Chang'an, what I witnessed was a severe and heart-wrenching gap between the rich and the poor. Yet, this wealth gap was merely a surface manifestation of a deeper problem. The foundation of a nation lies in the people's identification with their government.
This disparity existed primarily between the high-ranking officials and the common civilians—these were the two main groups in the Chang'an region. If the wealth gap truly fell between these two, it meant that the common people were experiencing a life entirely different from the luxurious existence of the officials. How were the people to cope? How could they possibly understand the extravagant lifestyle of the powerful?
The Chasm Between the Palace and the People
In my youth, I held high ambitions to govern the nation well. I saw the officials in their purple robes, yet they failed to observe the droughts, the floods, and the suffering of the imprisoned. They ate their fill, their ears were deaf to the cries of the poor, and their eyes were clouded by wine and indulgence. I often lamented the joys of the Qin region, for only the poor were left to sing of their sorrows.
The state of society was a manifestation of the environment and the many problems of that era; it was not caused by one person or one event. Thus, the plight of the people was entrusted to my poems, which were then recited among the common folk. As for the responsibility of the government, if they truly wished to seek the welfare of the people, they would have needed to mobilise several ministries and reach a consensus among the officials to formulate policies that could change the situation. I knew deeply that this was no easy task. However, as an official in the court, I still had to fulfil my duty. I had to describe, in detail, the conditions I observed, the scenes I witnessed, and the suffering of the people I heard about. If these could be sung among the people, and if one day they could reach the ears of the Emperor, perhaps the state of the nation would be different.
The Weight of the Poet’s Pen
I understood the suffering of the people because I came from a poor family myself. From childhood, the word 'poverty' became my daily reality. My upbringing and my profound understanding of these circumstances were the driving forces behind my efforts. Many scholars have great ambitions, wishing to climb the ladder of success, to leap over the dragon gate, and to return home in glory. While I had such ambitions, the true root of my drive was facing the impoverished people around me, facing the helplessness of life, the joys and sorrows of parting, and the suffering of unfulfilled desires. I wanted to change this situation to reduce the suffering of others; that was my personal ambition.
I hoped that one day, as an official, I could truthfully reflect these conditions so that the powerful in the court would know. I did not blame the officials out of malice; it was simply that the environment they were exposed to, the people they met, and the luxurious lives they led every day made it impossible for them to imagine what the suffering of the people was truly like. They could not know the reality of those who bore the brunt of the changing tides of the nation.
Even the impact of natural disasters, wars, or various social changes fell directly upon the people. The helplessness and the myriad states of human life were beyond the understanding of court officials. How could a few concise words in a memorial to the throne reflect the ten thousand kinds of pain in the hearts of the people? What I wrote, and my poetry, were the essence of these ten thousand words, waiting for someone with karmic affinity to see the true face of the people's poverty and helplessness through the lines. Such remonstrance was bound to provoke the anger of the ruler. However, if the ruler's 'reverse scales' were not touched, if the Emperor felt nothing, and if the ministers were all living in comfort, how could they ever wake up from their endless banquets to hear the voices of the people?
Exile and the Shift in Perspective
Yet, direct remonstrance inevitably invites dislike, and I had long been prepared for the risk of being demoted. Why did I continue to remonstrate knowing the risk? If I did not speak out, what was the use of being an official? If I were to fear death and cling to life, merely occupying a position and eating for free in the court, would I not just be another powerful person who knew nothing of suffering? I could not bring myself to do such a harmful thing. If I could not speak the truth, I might as well resign; and since I did not fear resignation, why should I fear speaking the truth?
As for demoting me, I did not care at all. If one wants to find a pretext to condemn someone, one will always find a reason. Thousands of words were used to convict me, but my brush fell like water, leaving no trace. There was no need to pity my slander and demotion; in Jiangzhou, I was free to speak my mind.
Many people thought that after being demoted to Jiangzhou, I would have no way to contribute, but that was not the case. In Jiangzhou, I continued to observe the people, and I recorded what I saw and heard in detail. The only benefit was that this place did not have the extreme wealth gap of the capital, nor the sharp contrast between the powerful elite and the commoners. The focus of my writing naturally shifted. The 'Song of the Pipa' and the 'Record of the Thatched Cottage' can be said to be my most classic portrayals from that time. The 'Song of the Pipa' may seem like helplessness regarding my own situation, but it was actually a self-warning—I could not lose my former ambitions just because I could not exercise them in a local region. And the 'Record of the Thatched Cottage' showed that no matter where I lived, I could record things in detail with a different state of mind. I was not merely recording what I saw; I was critiquing the times and pointing out the problems of those in power. I had no intention of opposing anyone, nor did I intend to blame the authorities; I truly wanted to remind the wealthy and the powerful so that they could empathise with the suffering of the people.
After being demoted to Jiangzhou, without such a stark wealth gap, I was naturally able to shift the focus of my writing to daily life. Although it seemed I was entrusting my emotions to the mountains and rivers, the helplessness in my heart and my true desire to help the country never diminished. What I recorded in my poems was my own requirement for myself as a 'scholar'. Every brushstroke was poetry; everything I saw was poetry. Since I was demoted to Jiangzhou, everything I saw was natural, and it was naturally reflected in my poems. In Jiangzhou, although I did not have the opportunity to fully exercise my talents, everything was something an official needed to observe and govern with care—how could there be a distinction between high and low? I experienced life there in my role as a Sima. My heart also underwent a transformation: if I were to live in seclusion, away from the world and its problems, could I truly bring help to the local area?
My experience in Jiangzhou made me understand more deeply: the various remonstrances I made to critique the times often could not truly bring about change. Only by truly observing the lives of the people and putting my own duties into action to improve their environment was the truly effective method. At first, when I was in the capital, I used all kinds of suggestions to criticise and judge many things and other people's affairs. Looking back, it was indeed a heart that wanted to serve the people. However, having only criticism without actual action, and criticising beyond my jurisdiction, only invited resentment. Instead, I lost the opportunity to serve in Chang'an and the chance to truly use my own strength to change the lives of the people. It was the same observation, but if these observations were truly used to discover the people's problems and then to help them with my own abilities, it would surely be much more practical than criticism. In areas like Jiangzhou and Zhongzhou, although I seemed to have nothing to do every day, it was precisely because there were fewer criticisms and debates among court officials that I was able to truly delve into the local customs and see the simplicity and purity of the place. I thought that perhaps what the people really needed was not to be incited into opposition against the powerful, but how to live a good life in their simple existence; to be able to get help in the most difficult and arduous places. I think this is what the people needed most. My previous suggestions and remarks, while seemingly intended to remind the powerful and those in high positions, might have been more meaningful if I had transformed those thoughts into actual actions to go deep among the people and solve their problems.
Finding Peace in the
After a brief return to the capital, I was sent to Suzhou and Hangzhou. Being able to go to these places, which I was more familiar with, was indeed more meaningful if I could truly serve the people. At that time, there were many temples and monasteries built in Suzhou and Hangzhou. On one hand, I was there to govern the region; on the other, I was there to investigate the local conditions and the actual situation, so I visited many places. Coupled with my habit of travelling and visiting since childhood, I recorded the content of these experiences in my poems one by one. At that time, many of my insights were indeed better than before. Sometimes, when poetry could not express them, I recorded them in the form of 'Records'.
It was then that I came into contact with the Buddha's teachings. After learning the Dharma, I began to understand that everything should be taken lightly and let go. Everything has its cause and effect; it is not something that can be spoken of, clarified, or changed through my arguments and descriptions. Cause and effect are natural, and one should follow the flow of all things rather than force them. If others are willing to listen, then speak; if they are not, there is no need to force it. This is the individual and the flow of for each official, and it is also the collective and retribution of the people at that time. The operation of the Heavenly Way is all within the laws of karma and cause and effect. Every drink and every peck is like this; every flower and every leaf also follows nature. Therefore, I gradually let go of the various states of the official world. During my tenure in Suzhou and Hangzhou, I made friends with many monks and shramanas. They explained the Buddha's teachings and principles to me, and combined with my observations of the world, it was a perfect match. All things are empty; only by not seeing the faults of the world can one transform the heart."
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At that time, I also came into contact with many Buddhist teachings and sutras. I felt a deep yearning for them and truly identified with the Dharma. While I would not dare to claim a full understanding of the profound essence of the Dharma, the way it provided such a thorough analysis of the myriad phenomena of this world filled me with immense respect for the Wisdom of our original teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha. Because of this, I resolved to devote myself to the study of the Dharma and to support and propagate it with all my might. I took -styled name 'Lay Practitioner Xiangshan' and discarded my previous titles, undoubtedly to correct my past attitude of using sharp criticism to dissect social ills. I hoped to forget everything, to entrust my emotions to the mountains and rivers, and to wander in a state of mind and life that was truly liberated and at ease. Since the Dharma could turn the tide of a grand situation, I would simply fulfill my duties within my own capacity and serve the local civilians. This was the approach I believed could truly help the people. Otherwise, no matter how much criticism I offered, it would only result in discord among the people.
The Middle Path of 'Drunken' Wisdom
Serving as an official here, I was also a subject of the Great Tang; there was no need to criticize or judge one another and cause disharmony. These were realizations I only gained after coming into contact with the Dharma. My 'drunken chanting' in my later years was a metaphor, symbolizing that I adopted a 'drunken' attitude toward the faults of the secular world—there was no need to see them so clearly. If someone brought them up, I could speak a few words while sober; if the scholars did not wish to listen and I had no intention of facing them, I would return to my 'drunkenness.' 'Drunkenness' and 'chanting' existed between the two, which is what we call the Middle Path in the Buddha’s gate—neither side is clung to. 'Drunkenness' means not inquiring into the affairs of the world, while 'chanting' refers to the opportunity to counsel the world when people bring up issues and the Causal Conditions have matured. Thus, I said:
Drunk, I sleep,
Asleep, I wake,
Awake, I chant,
Chanting, I drink,
Drinking, I am drunk,
Repeating the cycle again and again.
Drunkenness and chanting follow one another, like a revolving circle.
This drunkenness was not a state of being heavily intoxicated; it was a skillful means I used to remind myself not to dwell on the faults of the world.
A Debt of Dharma Affinity
With the establishment of the Dharma garden in Suzhou and Hangzhou, scholars were finally given the magnificent opportunity to study many Buddhist sutras. My Dharma affinity with Amitabha Buddha was also formed during that time. I was commissioned to cast a statue of the 'Western World' and made a vow before the Buddha:
The Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss, free from all evil realms and suffering.
I pray that those like me, old and sick, may all be reborn in the place of the Buddha of Immeasurable Life.
Through this, I formed a magnificent Dharma affinity with the Buddha, which is why I could be saved today by Amitabha Buddha and Practitioner Su and brought to the Western Land of Dharma Nature. In fact, I was delivered into the Western Land of Dharma Nature quite some time ago, and I have not yet returned to the Western Land; I have been waiting on the Land of Dharma Nature for the Dharma affinity to be fully complete.
The Realization of True Letting Go
Practitioner Su’s act of delivering China on such a massive scale, with the intent to interview historical figures, is the only reason I had the opportunity to be interviewed. To have this magnificent opportunity today, to be saved by the Buddha and to be interviewed, is the good fruit obtained from my diligent practice, writing, supporting, and propagating the Dharma in my later years. Although I knew of the Maitreya Pure Land and the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss in my later years, and I vowed that countless suffering beings would leave suffering and be saved along with me, looking back now, I only had a partial understanding of the Pure Land and could not fully comprehend or practice it. The main problem was that the arrogance in my heart had not been let go. Although I spent my later years wandering in the mountains and rivers, I did not diminish my ambition to display my talents. The true reason for this was that seeing through the problems of the world was a habit and ability I was born with; it was not something I could just let go of at will. Too much criticism and seeing the worst in things—I know now, while on the Land of Dharma Nature, that these are not in accordance with the Dharma. Even if I vowed to be reborn in the Western Land and vowed to descend again with Maitreya to save the human world, as long as there was even a trace of 'seeing the worst,' I could not truly save the world or deliver beings. Practitioner Su often says, 'Only by seeing the good in others can one save them.' This truly makes me sigh with emotion; during my lifetime, I never heard such a great Dharma, and thus I missed a precious opportunity for practice. Although I lived as 'Lay Practitioner Xiangshan' in my later years and discussed the Dharma and debated scriptures with many monastic friends, looking back now, all those Buddhist texts and all that knowledge still could not compare to true, great and true letting go.
This 'letting go' means that whether one is in the world or out of it, one is not stained by anything. This 'not being stained' is not about escaping or having an attitude of entrusting one's emotions to the mountains and rivers. It is about truly seeing the good in all things, not letting them stain the heart, not clinging to forms, and keeping , mind, and spirit pure.
The Pollution of Negative Judgment
This body is the Pure Land; this is the true, thorough letting go of all conditions. I did not understand this principle at the time; I only thought that since my official career was not going well, I might as well return home and pursue that state of letting go. If I could have made good use of my position as an official to be non-contending, to see the good in everything, and to assist from within to solve problems practically instead of just criticizing them, it would have been much more helpful. Those negative comments and criticisms all entered my , and they were a tremendous pollution to my body, mind, and spirit. Since my body was stained by the turbidity of consciousness, how could I claim to have let go of everything and follow the Buddha with one heart? Seeing Practitioner Su deliver demonic beings and the people of China on such a large scale, facing numerous tests—whether from the attacks of demon crowds or the criticism and slander from the human world—Practitioner Su still actively saves the world and delivers beings without producing any criticism of the world. This truly makes me admire him, and it is only now that I have truly learned the method to save the world and help people.
From the Sutras to the Golden Light
After I passed away in my later years, I thought that based on the merit of building pagodas and temples, I would be able to understand my life and be reborn in the Pure Land. However, I ended up entering the scriptures of the Xiangshan Temple. On one hand, I was attached to the appearance of words, thinking that by recording and describing many things and learning many Buddhist texts, I would be able to transcend; at the same time, I had never truly let go of my judgment of the world or my attachment to recording many matters in writing. Even so, what I entered were good books and Buddhist books, so I was able to continue learning and receiving the nourishment of the Dharma. Until one day, Practitioner Su led a vast golden light to shine down, and I was able to emerge from the space of the scriptures. I immediately understood that this was the Buddha-light, the Buddha’s salvation. I immediately began to chant the Buddha-name, 'Namo Amituofo,' and entered into the golden light, entering the Western Land of Dharma Nature.
At first, I thought this place was the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, but later I learned that it is located at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia; the Western Land of Dharma Nature is a Buddha Pure Land manifested by Practitioner Su in the human world. After practicing by listening to the sutras, hearing the Dharma, making vows, and chanting the Buddha-name, I have the opportunity to enter the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss. It is truly incomparable and magnificent.
The Futility of Worldly Criticism
To this day, after several days of purification on the Land of Dharma Nature, my state of mind is different again. Looking back, perhaps I was not a good official who truly worked to help the world. The world is inherently full of chaos; society is complex, and the gap between rich and poor is a phenomenon naturally formed by human beings in the worldly realm according to their own laws of karma and cause and effect. Everything is within a fixed number, and it is not something that anyone else can arbitrarily criticize. With my self-righteous attitude and my own opinions on the many phenomena of society, even if I added more criticism, how could I have improved such a phenomenon? People always know how to study, strive for success, pass examinations, and become officials. On one hand, it is for self-pursuit, and on the other, it is to serve society through an official position; these were common attitudes at the time. However, these studies of statecraft and these philosophies, while they can help govern a country, cannot fundamentally change the laws of karma and cause and effect. Everyone must still experience birth, aging, sickness, and death; this is the natural state of nature.
However, this birth, aging, sickness, and death are only the 'coarse items' and 'major items.' In the various laws of karma and cause and effect, every little thing, every event experienced every day, every person met, and every reaction made—all of that is proceeding within the laws of karma and nature. This is what is called karma, and it is the result of the collective action of the immeasurable and boundless of this body.
The Preciousness of Buddhist Education
On the Land of Dharma Nature, I also learned that most people cannot be their own masters. So, even if I wrote many poems criticizing and pointing out the chaos of society at that time, what was the use? Even if there were people who could read my poems, could they wake up from a single glance? Seeing the criticism, would they know how to reflect and change their ways? Without Buddhist education, could they wake up? This is very difficult. It is not that the officials do not want to wake up, but that they are under the control of their karmic creditors, and this body is being used to create karma. Such acts of seeking revenge—how could an outsider intervene? This further proves the preciousness of Buddhist education.
The Dharma is not a passive religion, but one that actively enters the world to help everyone truly face their own personality and problems, allowing everyone to gain the opportunity to be their own master; to learn what true selflessness is, and to learn how to thoroughly let go of oneself and help others. This is the key to turning around karma. And only when everyone turns around their own karma can the collective karma of the human world be turned around, and only then is it possible for the chaos of society to be improved.
I did not understand this at the time. Although I came into contact with the Dharma in my later years and heard of the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, my understanding was not thorough enough. I did not understand the true value of the Dharma for social governance, nor did I want to apply the Dharma to local governance. Although I incorporated some Buddhist concepts and the concept of 'non-action' into my governance, as a disciple of the Buddha, I should have vigorously propagated the Dharma, allowing sentient beings to have a place to return to, and letting everyone recognize the falsity of the body and the falsity of this world, so that they could make changes. But I was still influenced by the feeling of 'not being able to display my talents' in my heart, failing to fully realize my ambitions, and drifting into a transition of entrusting my emotions to the mountains and rivers and turning toward the Buddha's path. This was undoubtedly an invisible slander of the Dharma. To think that it was because I could not hold power or could not display my talents that I entrusted my emotions to the mountains, rivers, and the Dharma—this was truly a sin.
Seeing Practitioner Su deliver beings on a massive scale on the Land of Dharma Nature, saving the many spirits of China from the past five thousand or ten thousand years, each located at different levels and spaces, I am truly moved by Practitioner Su’s Ultimate Vow and great power, and I admire the greatness of the Dharma. This is truly something I had never thought of, never heard of, and never seen before. Namo Amituofo.
I have resided within the profound space of the scriptures for a very long time. Think about it—if there exists a space composed of text, then how many other spaces must exist throughout the universe? Physical realms, virtual dimensions—they are everywhere, and in each one, how many spirits are waiting, longing to be saved? This is why the propagation of the Buddha’s teachings is so vital; it is the only way to reach and save these countless suffering beings.
Regarding the current state of the human world, through the interviews with many demon crowds, I have come to understand that everyone is trapped within the cycle of their own karma. Whether they are being actively controlled by demons or are simply unable to act with autonomy due to the influence of their own deep-seated habits and personalities, they are all caught in their respective time and space environments, constantly creating immeasurable and boundless karma.
Awakening from the Karmic Web
To truly escape this cycle, one must receive the education of the Buddha’s teachings. Furthermore, one must rely on the great power of Practitioner Su to deliver demonic beings, thereby reducing their influence and control over the people of this world. Only then will people have the genuine opportunity to come into contact with the Great Dharma and awaken from their long slumber. From my vantage point here in the Dharma-Nature Land, I have been quietly observing all of this, and I have come to realise that my previous understanding of reality was vastly different from the truth.
I am profoundly grateful to Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su for saving me and bringing me to the Dharma-Nature Land. This has allowed me to relearn the Buddha’s teachings and gain a completely new, deeper understanding of existence.
A New Path of Service
I, Lay Practitioner Xiangshan, hereby formally join Practitioner Su’s salvation team, becoming an official disciple of the Buddha. In the future, I hope to continue following the Buddha’s path, dedicating myself to the work of delivering countless suffering beings.
Gratitude to Namo Amituofo. Gratitude to Practitioner Su.
Namo Amituofo.
Bai Juyi
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