The Compassionate King of the Fifth Hell

This is a record of an interview with the King of the Fifth Hell, Du Xingbao, who sought Chao Du at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now serves as the King of the Fifth Hell, reflecting upon his life as a merchant in Shenyang, Liaoning, approximately several centuries ago. Recorded by Practitioner Su on July 22, 2015.

Practitioner Su: "We respectfully invite the King of the Fifth Hell to join us. Namo Amituofo."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Namo Amituofo."

Practitioner Su: "We see each other quite often in the Fifth Hall, but today I have the honour of interviewing you. May I ask, where were you from in your human life?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I was a native of Shenyang, Liaoning."

From Merchant to King of the Fifth Hell

Practitioner Su: "Shenyang, Liaoning. And what was your profession there?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I was a cloth merchant—a very prominent cloth merchant."

Practitioner Su: "A major cloth merchant! You must have been extremely wealthy, as cloth was a highly valuable commodity in that era."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Practitioner Su, beyond being a large-scale cloth merchant, I also owned my own dye house. I oversaw every aspect of the dyeing process myself, from start to finish."

Practitioner Su: "You managed the entire dyeing operation! That is a crucial business; that is how one makes a fortune. In those days, a major cloth merchant was a symbol of great wealth and status. Tell me, how did you come to take on the role of the King of the Fifth Hell, and how long have you held this position?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Are you asking how I came to be the King of the Fifth Hell?"

Practitioner Su: "Yes, and when did you assume this office? When did you arrive here to take up your post?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "In terms of human time, it was around the time the Ten Kings of Hell came to the Hsiang Kuang Buddha-land to seek Chao Du and rebirth in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. I do not even recall exactly how I arrived at this Hall to serve as the King of the Fifth Hell. From the perspective of the human world, it has not been long, but in the realm of hell, time flows very differently. A single day here is far longer than in the human world."

Practitioner Su: "Indeed, one day in the ghost realm is equivalent to a month in the human world!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It feels like a very long time to me, personally. But in the human world, it has only been a few months. I have heard that for beings suffering retribution in hell, a single day can feel like over two thousand years in the human world."

A Life of Prosperity and Responsibility

Practitioner Su: "That is the nature of it. Now, since you were a successful cloth merchant and dye house owner, may I have your name from your time in the human world?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "In the human world, I was known as Du Xingbao."

Practitioner Su: "Du Xingbao—a wonderful name. May I ask at what age you passed away?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I was fifty-seven years old."

Practitioner Su: "Fifty-seven is quite young. What good deeds did you perform that allowed you to ascend to the position of the King of the Fifth Hell?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "As I mentioned, I was a major cloth merchant. Naturally, I had many employees. In my dye house alone, I employed over fifty people, including many women who were incredibly skilled; their dyeing techniques were truly exquisite."

Practitioner Su: "So, they were able to dye colours with great care and beauty?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes, and I had men responsible for the heavy lifting and the hanging of the fabrics. On the merchant side, because we dealt with the public, we had many customers coming and going—about sixteen staff members managed that side of the business."

Practitioner Su: "Your household must have been very large. How many people were under your care in total?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It was not exceptionally large, but I employed about sixty-five people in total."

Practitioner Su: "Not large? That is quite a large household! Does that include your own family members?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Of course, my family members were included in that number."

Practitioner Su: "You had many children, I assume?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I had six children: four daughters and two sons."

Practitioner Su: "And how many wives did you have?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Practitioner Su, you always ask this!"

Practitioner Su: "It is a necessary question, as it was quite common in those days to have multiple wives—one, two, or three was perfectly normal."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Because my business was so demanding and required so much management, I took two wives."

Practitioner Su: "To manage the household! Having two wives likely brought you peace of mind. So, two wives, two sons, and four daughters."

King of the Fifth Hell: "That is correct, yes!"

The Virtue of Treating Others as Family

Practitioner Su: "What were the circumstances of your passing at fifty-seven? Were there any signs?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Signs of my passing? Perhaps I should talk about the good deeds I performed instead!"

Practitioner Su: "Certainly, please do. Tell us about the good deeds you performed throughout your life so that everyone may hear."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Because I was a cloth merchant, and my parents had been small-scale merchants before me, I felt that once I took over the business, I had a duty to treat people well. If you treat your employees and those who help you with genuine sincerity, they are willing to give their all for you."

Practitioner Su: "People in the old days were honest and loyal!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Indeed! If we gave them instructions, they were eager to carry them out. If you explained things clearly, they would do an even better job. I treated them like my own family. I also had to care for my children and my two wives. I treated both my wives with equality; I did not show favouritism—well, if I said I did not favour the younger one, I would be lying!"

Practitioner Su: "I understand; you were fond of the younger, more beautiful one."

King of the Fifth Hell: "I would give her things in private, but in public, I ensured both wives were treated equally, and I did the same for my children. As for my employees and accountants, I treated them all the same. Whenever our sales were strong, I would share the profits with them—what people today call a bonus. It was not a massive amount, but they were always delighted and worked with great enthusiasm because I always told them: 'This is our shop, everyone's shop,' rather than calling it my own."

Practitioner Su: "You had a broad heart, you accumulated virtue, and you were wise and prosperous. That is why your path was so long and successful!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "That is exactly how I lived. From a young age, I was particularly sensitive to clothing, especially the fabric and the tailoring. Because my father was a small merchant, I learned a little about fabric patterns, textures, and the quality of silk and satin. Through constant exposure, I became increasingly familiar with it all. I was very generous with my employees, even providing them with clothing. I would give them fabric, which they could either sell for money or use to make better clothes for themselves and their families during the holidays. There are a few specific instances I feel were quite meaningful. For instance, the woman who managed my dye house—we could call her the housekeeper—her name was Pan Hongdan."

Practitioner Su: "Please write her name down. She must have been very loyal to you for you to remember her so clearly."

King of the Fifth Hell: "(Writes down: Pan Hongdan) Pan Hongdan was incredibly loyal. When her parents both fell ill, she was the only daughter in her family, and she had no other relatives. I took both of her elderly parents into my own home to live with us. When they were ill, I hired doctors to treat them and provided all the medicine they needed. I respected her parents as if they were my own, treating them with the same care I gave my own parents. They lived with us until they passed away. I personally handled everything, from their medical care to their final funeral arrangements. Because of this, Hongdan was even more devoted to me. That was one instance."

Practitioner Su: "You were wise, virtuous, and compassionate!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "There was another man I hired. We had to dry the dyed cloth, which required great strength to lift the bamboo poles and drape the fabric. His name was Chen Ertong."

Practitioner Su: "One must be kind-hearted in life. I will have a memorial tablet written for him as well."

King of the Fifth Hell: "(Writes down: Chen Ertong) Chen Ertong was the second son in his family, and his parents were fortunately cared for by his siblings. Because he was so strong, he somehow ended up with seven children. Raising seven children is no simple task, and his wife was unwilling to work, so the expenses for food and clothing were a heavy burden. I gave him extra wages, and he worked very hard. I told him not to worry about the children. Every month, I would give him additional money to buy whatever the children needed—rice, vegetables, or daily necessities. Whenever I had extra, I would ask my first wife to give it to him, so I was able to help him significantly. Later, a strange thing happened. The children began to fall ill one after another with what was then called an infectious disease. After his wife took the children back to her parents' home, four of the seven children passed away."

Practitioner Su: "Seven children and four passed away? Heavens! An infectious disease—was it cholera?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It was likely what people then called an infectious disease."

Practitioner Su: "Did his wife die from the infection as well?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "No, she did not."

Practitioner Su: "Did the children die because they were taken to her parents' home?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes. After she brought them back, the trauma of losing so many children caused her to lose her mind."

Practitioner Su: "She became mentally ill?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "She could not bear the trauma, so she became quite unstable. It was a difficult time for Ertong, and I helped him through it. Our household became quite large and prosperous as a result."

Practitioner Su: "So you took the remaining three children in as well?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes, and we also hired his wife to help, as my second aunt, who managed the household chores, needed the assistance."

"The best part was that they were all good-hearted people. Because of how I treated them in daily life, they knew that I was very clear about right and wrong. If something was right, it was right; if it was wrong, I would never show favouritism to either side. However, I would also guide them. If a mistake was made, I would tell them on the spot that such behaviour and such methods were incorrect. Therefore, they were all quite upright. The people who worked for me had larger mind-capacity and were more righteous. Whenever they felt they had wronged someone, they would apologise to each other, or they would find their own way to reconcile with the other person."

A Legacy of Kindness

"So, I tried my best to help them with whatever they needed. This was also because of what my mother taught me: one must be benevolent to others and try one's best to achieve that benevolence. I also tried to treat everyone as my own family, treating other people's parents just as I would treat my own."

Practitioner Su: "Wow! You had a sensible and good mother—that is wonderful! Your mother taught you well! And where is your mother now?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "My mother is currently in the celestial realm."

Practitioner Su: "Those with cultivation and virtue will certainly ascend to the heavens. We have saved many celestial beings at the Hsiang Kuang Buddha-land. Has your mother gone to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Not yet, not yet."

Practitioner Su: "Does she want to go with you? Or would she like to go sooner?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I would like for my mother to go sooner."

Practitioner Su: (Speaking to the fellow practitioner beside her) "Alright, write down her name. We will need to invite her down later. Which layer of heaven is she in?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "She is in the second layer." (He writes down the name: Du Shi Baomei.)

The Final Moments in the Human World

Practitioner Su: "We will invite her later. You had a great mind-capacity while in the human world and you did very well. People must have been devastated when you passed away at fifty-seven. Such a good person leaving so early—you weren't ill, were you? You lived a very upright life, so you shouldn't have been sick, right?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I wasn't ill. I just felt light, a feeling of being light and airy."

Practitioner Su: "When you were about to pass away at fifty-seven, how long did you have that light, airy feeling?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It started about three months before. It was as if I had no appetite. When I say no appetite, I mean I didn't want to eat greasy food; I only wanted to eat light, simple things."

Practitioner Su: "It was natural, then? You just naturally had no appetite?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It was natural. I ate light food, and my body felt quite comfortable. There was no so-called discomfort; it was just that the more I ate, the lighter the food became, and it seemed I didn't need to eat much. But at the time, my body still felt fine and comfortable. I felt quite good."

Practitioner Su: "And how did your life end? Did you fall asleep at night, or was it during the day?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It was during the day, around dusk—the sun had already set."

Practitioner Su: "Did you feel drowsy at that time?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "It was not a time I would normally want to lie down. I didn't usually have that habit, but at that moment, I said to my first wife, 'I am going to the room to rest. I am going to lie down for a while.'"

A Transition of Space

Practitioner Su: "And you never came back after you fell asleep. So, you were sleeping, but did you dream of anyone coming to call you? Did anyone bring a sedan chair to take you away?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "As I slept, my whole body felt light—completely light and airy."

Practitioner Su: "That lightness means your spirit was naturally emerging."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes, yes! My whole body was light. At the time, I didn't know why, but I even looked back. I was lying on the bed, and I looked at myself. Practitioner Su, I looked and wondered, 'Why am I lying on the bed? How do I have this other light, airy feeling?' The version of me lying on the bed looked very peaceful—very relaxed. I wondered what this was for. This other, light, airy me! Just as I finished looking, I turned my head, and someone was standing right there. I was startled! 'Who are you?' I asked."

Practitioner Su: "What were they wearing? Was it red?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes! I said, 'Why did you come to find me? And you don't need to wear such red clothes!' I looked at his face; it wasn't particularly good-looking or ugly, but at the time, there was no expression. I asked, 'May I ask who you are?' He wouldn't speak to me; he just gestured at me."

Practitioner Su: "He was telling you to go with him, that's all."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes! And since I thought, 'Well, I'm just sleeping in my room anyway, I might as well go and see what is going on!'"

Practitioner Su: "He asked you to go, so you went to take a look."

King of the Fifth Hell: "I went to take a look. I was just sleeping there anyway. So, I just left and followed him."

Practitioner Su: "And after you followed him? Did you know that was the Fifth Hell?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes! I arrived there in an instant. It was very fast."

Practitioner Su: "You said it was fast. How long did it take?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I walked almost two or three steps and I was there. Isn't that strange?"

Practitioner Su: "Your home was connected to the hells. That was a shift in space!"

Assuming the Throne

King of the Fifth Hell: "That's right! I was startled! How could I have arrived just after following him? Once I arrived, I looked, and the jailers were still there. When I saw the jailers, I was truly afraid—I was genuinely afraid. The jailers didn't dare move when they saw me, just like the people in the human world..."

Practitioner Su: "Like guards standing very solemnly!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "They just stood there without moving, and I naturally became solemn as well. At this moment, the judge spoke: 'Please come this way, please walk this way.' He told me to walk over here, which was clearly towards the back of the Hall of the King of Hell. He even said, 'In the world, you were surnamed Du, right?' I hadn't even introduced myself, yet he knew my surname was Du! 'Alright then,' I said, 'why don't you introduce yourself?' He said, 'I am the judge of the Fifth Hall.' I asked, 'Judge, what is the matter that you have summoned me? In my business and my daily life, I have never done anything to harm others or go against the laws of heaven. Why have you summoned me?' He said, 'It is precisely because you have never done anything to harm others that we have summoned you. We see that you are a kind and honest person, clear about good and evil, and you seem to understand what is good and what is bad. Therefore, someone like you, who is clear about the rewards and punishments of good and evil, is the most suitable!' That was it. I said, 'That is...' and he explained it to me in detail. Practitioner Su, the person he was talking about was you!"

Practitioner Su: "Talking about me? What did he say about me?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes! He said, 'The ten Kings of Hell have all gone to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss.'"

Practitioner Su: "Oh! All of you went to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss."

King of the Fifth Hell: "'We are at the Hsiang Kuang Buddha-land, receiving the teachings of Practitioner Su. We often listen to Practitioner Su give Dharma talks and seek Spiritual Deliverance. Practitioner Su is compassionate and has sent us to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss.' He wanted me to take over this position. I had to consider it for a moment."

Practitioner Su: "You had to consider it! You were being asked to be the King of Hell!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I hadn't died yet! I thought, 'I haven't died yet!' So I asked him, 'What about the me that is lying on the bed sleeping? I haven't died yet!' The judge said, 'It is not that you haven't died; you are sleeping. You are dead—dead! What is called death is not really death. Your spirit is here. You should say that your allotted lifespan has ended.' When he told me that, I understood. My lifespan had ended. Alright! Since I had come to the Fifth Hall, I said, 'Alright, let it be!' For the things I didn't know or wasn't familiar with, he said he would help me. Then, I looked at myself. I had to get dressed first. I touched the fabric—I was a cloth merchant, and this material was excellent!"

Practitioner Su: "Silk and satin, very fine, soft, and delicate. That is good material."

King of the Fifth Hell: "I don't think I had this quality in my shop. It was too fine, very soft! And it was quite light. It looked good when worn, and the craftsmanship was excellent. I looked like a proper gentleman. I touched it from the collar down to the hem, and I dressed myself. When I came out, the sleeves were a bit long, so I said to the judge, 'Is this alright? Is this okay?' The judge said, 'Now that you are the King of the Fifth Hell, of course, this appearance is acceptable.' He led me around and I took my seat."

Practitioner Su: "Your throne as the King of Hell must be very large!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "I took my seat."

Practitioner Su: "Ascend—the throne!"

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes! I ascended the throne."

Practitioner Su: "Did a bunch of jailers shout, 'Wei—Wu—' (Authority and Might)?"

King of the Fifth Hell: "They can shout, or they don't have to. For the first time, of course, I needed to bolster my courage. The judge told them, 'Before he ascends the throne later, everyone must make this new King of Hell look majestic, so you must shout.' They stood on both sides, and they really did it: 'Wei—Wei—Wu—Wu—' But it was very strange! Practitioner Su, the sound they made was trembling! 'Wei—Wei—Wu—Wu—' I asked, 'Judge, Judge, why is this 'Wei-Wu' trembling?' He replied, 'The King of Hell may not know this, but the trembling is to make those who come here tremble in their hearts; it is not that we are trembling ourselves.' I understood then. It was to make those spirits tremble, so when they entered the door, they were already trembling! Two jailers brought the spirits up, and I saw the jailers' facial expressions begin to change, becoming more..."

Practitioner Su: "More serious."

King of the Fifth Hell: "Yes! I saw them like that, so I also became very serious and began to hear the cases."

"My hall is a bit different. There is a channel where, as long as someone feels they have been wronged, they can come to my hall. I have this channel for them to appeal. One person was just like me: 'My physical body is still there, why has my spirit come to this place?' He was in the same situation as me, and I secretly chuckled to myself. 'What have you done? Why do you say your body hasn't rotted yet, but your spirit is here? You must be here to be judged. How can you play the fool and pretend you don't know what you have done!' So, I interrogated him. Some would say, 'My old mother, I have an eighty-year-old mother, and no one is taking care of her!' This was clearly a lie; he obviously still had his... He thought that no one knew what he was saying, honestly! He would say, 'But because my mother loves me, if she sees me, she will live another hundred years. If she sees my brother, she won't be happy. So, King of Hell, I have been wronged! Can you let me go back to the human world to be filial to my mother, and after my mother passes away, I will come back to receive my retribution?' There were cases like that, too."

Practitioner Su: He came to the Yama Palace to negotiate terms!

Yama: Indeed! So I told him, 'There is no need to negotiate. Bring the Mirror of Retribution here.' My guards brought it over. I said, 'Take a look at what you have done.' The mirror displayed every evil deed he had committed. He had nothing to say and confessed his guilt. Once a soul confesses, things are easier to manage; it is easier for them to realise their mistakes. The main goal is to awaken them. Why create such causes and reap such fruits? Why go through all that extra trouble and waste one's breath?

There are others who try to argue their case. For them, I have my guards take them to the so-called 'Looking-Home Terrace.' This terrace is quite extensive! On one side, it leans against a mountain, and the view ahead is boundless. Mountain paths wind all around it, and it is always crowded. The souls stand on the Looking-Home Terrace to look back at their past, their hometowns, their neighbours, and the things they did. When they first see it, some are actually quite happy. Some even speak in a Beijing accent, saying, 'Beijing is truly beautiful!' Others use a Fujian accent: 'Fujian people, the people of Fujian, Fujian is so beautiful, the people of Fujian, the waters of Fujian, I miss home so much.' There are many different reactions. When they encounter their native tongue or people from their hometown—who, as it turns out, are also here—they look, have nothing left to say, and naturally, they must accept their retribution.

The Mystery of the Ailing Knees

Practitioner Su: Yama, I have something to ask you. Looking at people in our world today, I notice that their knees are particularly problematic. I see the 'Kneeling-on-Knees Hell,' where the guards strike their kneecaps. Many people in Taiwan are like this now! They all have bad knees and end up in wheelchairs. Where does this problem stem from? It seems like this is the very first hell in your first palace!

Yama: These kneecaps, it is because some people...

Practitioner Su: They are heartless and ungrateful.

Yama: Exactly! Others cultivate them, yet they are heartless, ungrateful, and forget the kindness they received. Furthermore, those who are heartless and ungrateful often started as servants. Since they were small, they were someone's little houseboy. Their master cultivated them, allowed them to study, and taught them to read and write. In the end, they usurped the master's position and turned against him. They knew the master, and on the surface, they were always respectful, but in reality, they eventually harmed the master. So, it really is...

Practitioner Su: Many people today do not believe in the laws of karma and cause and effect. They are ungrateful; there are many such people.

Yama: That is true! Being ungrateful and treating one's parents poorly—the knees are meant for kneeling to show gratitude for the kindness of parents. Therefore, those who treat their parents poorly also receive this retribution.

Practitioner Su: Treating parents poorly—the elderly all hope to be cared for, but I see many children who are unkind to their parents.

Yama: Indeed! But there are degrees of severity. For those whose actions are too extreme...

Practitioner Su: There are many people having knee surgery in hospitals these days!

Yama: Some of it is the karma created in past lives, the retribution they must endure, which is why they are in this state.

A Glimpse into the Past

Practitioner Su: You have also done many good deeds in the human world, which is why you are able to serve as the Yama of the Fifth Palace today. You took office at fifty-seven. That was just when we were performing the deliverance for the Ten Kings of Hell; that was when you took your post. Now, I must ask you to look into your past. In your past lives, have you ever been to hell?

Yama: Asking me to recall that... it seems quite painful.

Practitioner Su: It is like this: whether it is painful or not, you must face it. Look at everyone—there are celestial beings, and this includes many of our fourfold assembly of disciples. The problem is that the spirit goes to be reborn, jumping from one life to the next. We must unravel all of this. Only then can those who wish to learn the Buddha's teachings grow their roots of goodness, avoid creating karma, preserve their lives, and stay out of hell. Right now, you Yamas are the ones interrogating these cases. If there is sin, they must go to hell to receive retribution, right? So, you say it is quite heavy. Let us look from when you were fifty-seven and count backwards—from when you were a cloth merchant—that will be faster.

Yama: It was in my seventh life.

Practitioner Su: How did you end up in hell in your seventh life?

Yama: My name at that time was... (He writes down the name: Chen Dalin).

Practitioner Su: In your seventh life, you were called Chen Dalin. What were the circumstances that led you to hell? What trade did Chen Dalin practice?

Yama: As I try to look now, it is all dark.

Practitioner Su: Is it dark when I ask you to look?

Yama: Yes! I cannot see anything!

Practitioner Su: Then let me open it for you. May the Buddha have compassion. Our Yama of the Fifth Palace wishes to see his past. Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the realm of hungry ghosts; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please ascend the lotus seat. With the Buddha's blessings, may it be revealed.

Yama: My name was Chen Dalin. I had a wife, and my wife and I ran a business together.

Practitioner Su: What kind of business?

Yama: We did embroidery.

Practitioner Su: How could embroidery lead to the sins of hell? Was your wife very skilled at embroidery?

Yama: My wife was very skilled; she embroidered beautifully. We did not have any children.

Practitioner Su: No children—was it your wife who could not conceive, or was it you?

Yama: I do not know why; we just could not have children.

Practitioner Su: You really wanted a child, didn't you?

Yama: At the time, it was alright. We would see the children in the village, and we were always happy to give them sweets or invite them to our home for a meal. It was fine, even without children.

Because at the time, my wife—just as you, Practitioner Su, mentioned—was curious whether it was I who could not conceive or she. So, we went to a temple. Later, my wife became obsessed with the Buddha—what they called 'obsessed with religion'—and she spent all her time at the temple. We would often argue. Eventually, she went every single day. My embroidery stall—the cloth, the needles and thread—everything was left untouched because no one was doing the work. Actually, my hands were not that skilled. Customers would come looking for finished products, pieces that were already completed. My wife, my partner, kept going to the temple. It was superstition; at the time, I called it superstition. When this superstition took hold, I felt...

Practitioner Su: Did you argue very fiercely?

Yama: Yes! Later, I would scold her, and she would not answer me. What made me the angriest was that I would scold her, and she would not reply. I felt she did not treat me like a human being. That was how it was at the time. I felt that if I scolded you, you should at least respond. She did not, which made me even angrier. Later, we argued constantly. My wife started leaving early and returning late, though sometimes she would still worry about me not having food and would come back to prepare a meal.

Practitioner Su: She was so obsessed with that temple! What was she believing in? How could she be so obsessed?

Yama: She said she was doing volunteer work. Later, she would come back and do this... (he mimics the action of tapping a wooden fish).

Practitioner Su: She would come back and chant scriptures, is that it?

Yama: At first, it was one or two books, but then it grew to be much more.

Practitioner Su: Why didn't she take you along to understand the Buddha's teachings?

Yama: Because I scolded her. She knew I might scold her, so she did not want to talk to me. I said, 'What are you doing there? You don't eat, you don't need three meals a day, just tapping like that—dong! dong!—and you'll be full? How could that possibly fill you up? If you don't go out to earn money and we don't do business, where will the money come from to buy food? If the rice jar is empty, how will you eat? Now, I cannot even do the embroidery business, so what are we supposed to do? We have no family assets; what are we going to do?' My wife said, 'You still have your physical strength; you can go do other things.'

Practitioner Su: She wanted you to go find a job, is that it?

Yama: Yes! Our business, which was once fine, disappeared. I could not do business, and there was no money coming in. How could we go on? Seeing this, I had no choice but to go help others, to walk around the market and look for work, but it seemed I could not do anything.

Practitioner Su: You did not find a job?

Yama: I looked, but nothing seemed suitable for me. I could not even make steamed buns.

Practitioner Su: You have to learn! If you don't learn, how will you know how!

Yama: I tried, but the buns I made looked ugly. Other people's buns were smooth and round, but mine were lumpy and uneven. I do not know why. I tried making them myself when I got home, but it did not work. In the end, I had to go help others with...

Practitioner Su: Carrying a sedan chair? That is simpler!

Yama: I would come home exhausted. One day, I was so angry—I was already physically drained, and my wife was still there tapping (he mimics the wooden fish tapping again).

Practitioner Su: So you were very angry when you heard that?

Yama: She was tapping slowly, but my heart was going like this (he mimics a very fast tapping motion). My heart was pounding, and I was absolutely furious. Just then, I took those scriptures and threw them into the stove to burn them. I said, 'If you keep chanting, if you keep reciting, I just won't believe it!'

Practitioner Su: Oh! That is a very heavy sin. The scriptures had done nothing to you; how could you burn them?

Yama: I did not understand. I did not understand that one must not destroy the scriptures.

Practitioner Su: You did not know that burning scriptures is forbidden.

Yama: There were two times she did not bring them back, and I burned them.

Practitioner Su: Did your wife not come back?

Yama: It happened twice. And the last time, I was even more furious because she never spoke; she always treated me with cold indifference. You know, when a man loses his temper, there is actually only one thing that can resolve it. Practitioner Su, you know which thing I mean, right?

Practitioner Su: You mean physical intimacy, is that it?

Yama: Just that one thing would have resolved it, but she was not willing. I would lie there in bed waiting for her for a long time, but she would not come. That day, I deliberately stayed awake, waiting. I thought, 'I will just wait until you are asleep, then I will get into bed.' It was no fun. In the end, she still pushed me away. Actually, I had the strength, but I did not want to force her. Forcing her was meaningless. To have to force one's own wife—it was exhausting! That was how it was.

Practitioner Su: Did you beat her to death?

Yama: I did not beat her to death. I slapped her a few times.

Practitioner Su: Did she run away after that and never come back?

Yama: Yes. She ran away to the temple and became a nun—she became a nun!

Practitioner Su: She became a nun. You were also unable to let go; you could have just married someone else.

Yama: "I didn't have any family property to speak of, so how could I have married? I knew that our interaction as husband and wife was strained; we didn't have children, and I felt it was quite bitter. I didn't want to marry anyone else, so I went to the temple to find her. At that time, she hadn't yet shaved her head to become a nun. I went to the temple to look for her."

A Confrontation in the Temple

"Once I arrived at the temple, I couldn't be as arrogant as I usually was. At first, I tried to be a bit more refined. I said to the abbot, 'Because she is still my wife, I have things to discuss with her. After we talk, we will see what happens.' The abbot also felt that made sense—that we should reach a conclusion and a resolution. He knew my wife wanted to pursue the practice, but I had been constantly obstructing her."

"Later, I spoke with my wife. I was waiting for her to say something, but she just wouldn't speak. Finally, she opened her mouth and said one thing: 'I am sorry.' There happened to be some books in the room, and I just pushed the bookshelf over. 'What kind of books are these? What kind of scriptures are you reading? What are you doing? You don't even want a home, you don't even want me! You are so obsessed that you would just abandon me to come to this place! What kind of 'pure land' is this? Can your heart be pure? I am so angry—can you be pure?' I destroyed the scriptures and pushed everything into a chaotic mess."

Practitioner Su: "You dared to cause trouble inside a temple?"

Yama: "I destroyed the scriptures."

Practitioner Su: "Oh my! You were very bold, weren't you! What happened next?"

Yama: "No one appeared. After I finished venting my temper, the fire in my heart died down, and I went home. I went home to drink, and drink, and drink. I still felt a deep sense of resentment, so I stumbled my way back up the mountain to find her. I accidentally fell off a cliff, and that was that."

The Consequences of Destroying Dharma

Practitioner Su: "You fell off the cliff yourself. Namo Amituofo. And then you went to hell? Hell was because you destroyed the scriptures, right? How many hells did you go to?"

Yama: "Destroying the scriptures happened right here in my own court, the Fifth Hall. I received my retribution in this very hall."

Practitioner Su: "Was it the Flying Mountain and Fire Stone Hell or the Heart-Punishing Hell? It was the Heart-Punishing Hell, wasn't it!"

Yama: "And I had obstructed her. People's scriptures are meant to open their Wisdom, and I destroyed them. I really didn't know—at the time, I truly didn't know. I really didn't know. I even burned them. If I had known, I wouldn't have burned them, and she wouldn't have become a nun. If I had known, I wouldn't have been so fierce toward her. I had food to eat back then, after all!"

Practitioner Su: "You people in the past couldn't let go. If you didn't want to be together, you should have just separated and remarried! Why create such karma?"

Yama: "At the time, it was just a fit of anger!"

The Fate of a Lost Soul

Practitioner Su: "Was it just one hell? After the Heart-Punishing Hell, what happened? Where is your wife now? The one who was Chen Dalin's wife, the one who did embroidery—where is she now?"

Yama: "She is crying in the ghost realm."

Practitioner Su: "She is still crying in the ghost realm?"

Yama: "She is still crying."

Practitioner Su: "How many lifetimes has it been, and she is still in the ghost realm?"

Yama: "It is very strange! She is a monastic, so why is she kneeling and crying?"

Practitioner Su: "She is a monastic and she is still kneeling and crying! What is her name? Write it down, and we will invite her later."

Yama: "Should I write her name from before she became a monastic, or her Dharma name?"

Practitioner Su: "Your wife! What was Chen Dalin's wife's name?"

Yama: "(Writes down the name: Wang Xiuchun)"

Practitioner Su: "So she also didn't practise properly."

Yama: "I suppose it is because my tone back then was too harsh, as if I were cursing her. I said things like, 'How could you ever attain a pure heart? It's impossible!'"

Practitioner Su: "We must save her later, too. You are the King of Yama now."

Yama: "Sigh! I feel that toward her as well..."

Practitioner Su: "You didn't understand the Buddha’s teachings. If you had understood the Buddha’s teachings, how wonderful it would have been for both of you to study together!"

Yama: "Perhaps if she had spoken up back then, it wouldn't have led to... but I can't blame her. If I had been able to calm my heart and wait for her to speak, nothing would have happened."

A Previous Life of Generosity

Practitioner Su: "I must ask you one more thing. When you were Du Xingbao, what were you doing in your previous life? How were you able to open such a large cloth shop and dyeing house? I am asking about the life before Du Xingbao."

Yama: "It is said that my grandmother was someone who could hand-stitch cotton-padded jackets. She was very skilled. My mother and my grandmother both stayed at home sewing these jackets for others. Especially around the New Year, there would be a demand for different colours."

Practitioner Su: "So in your previous life, you were also a woman?"

Yama: "Yes, a woman. I was my grandmother's eldest granddaughter. My grandmother passed her skills to my mother, and my mother passed them to me, so my hands were particularly skilled. Beyond just being skilled, I was faster than my mother and grandmother. I could also create different variations; I knew how to add toggles and how to add lace."

Practitioner Su: "And people liked the look of them."

Yama: "I would also add hidden pockets. There were many ways to do it—some were direct, some were visible, and some were on the side. The side pockets were great so that things wouldn't get lost. These were all things my grandmother and mother taught me."

Practitioner Su: "You only did that, and you became so wealthy? Did you do any good deeds back then?"

Yama: "It wasn't just that. After I married, because I was skilled, I worked alongside my husband. Originally, my husband worked with paper—what people call papermaking. He had to use a pole to drain the pulp."

Practitioner Su: "Yes, that is how it was done in ancient times."

Yama: "I helped him with that as well."

Practitioner Su: "How many children did you have?"

Yama: "I only had three children at the time—three sons."

Practitioner Su: "When you were a woman, married to a papermaker, you had three sons. How did you achieve such great wealth, like owning a dyeing house? What kind of merit did you accumulate?"

Yama: "Well, for the paper we made, some of it was needed for..."

Practitioner Su: "For the private schools?"

Yama: "Yes. My husband was a kind man, so I told him, 'Our three sons don't have much schooling, so why don't we take the paper needed for the private schools and cut it to size for them?' If the students were from poorer families, we would give it to them for free. Twice every year, we would take the paper we had made and give it to the people at the private schools without charge, creating good affinities with them."

Practitioner Su: "Just that little bit allowed you to 'upgrade'?"

Yama: "It happened twice every year!"

Practitioner Su: "Doing good deeds is truly important!"

Yama: "At the same time, every year during my spare time, I would still sew those cotton-padded jackets and clothes to give to the poorer neighbours. I did it every year. I did both—the paper and the cloth—out of a desire to give from my heart."

Practitioner Su: "And just from that little bit, you were elevated?"

Yama: "Actually, I wouldn't dare say 'elevated.' We did many things."

Practitioner Su: "Oh my! That accumulation of merit is incredible!"

Yama: "It was just Generosity. Pure Generosity."

Practitioner Su: "So Generosity, accumulating merit, and having a broad heart are very important."

Yama: "The affinities we created were all good affinities. What was special was that we did these things naturally from the heart. We didn't need any reward, and we didn't need people to... it wasn't for the sake of saying who we were."

Practitioner Su: "Was your husband the same as you?"

Yama: "Let's not talk about that, but my husband was not greedy for fame or wealth."

From Hell to the Snake Realm

Practitioner Su: "No wonder! I have enjoyed chatting with the King of the Fifth Hall today. After you fell off the cliff and came up from hell, did you go to the animal realm?"

Yama: "Yes, I was an animal after I came up."

Practitioner Su: "What kind of animal?"

Yama: "Because I had a bad temper, in addition to the retribution of hell, I later became a snake."

Practitioner Su: "You see, one fit of anger and you end up in the snake realm, Namo Amituofo! So, when you came up from hell and became a snake, were you a good snake or a poisonous snake? I don't think you would be a poisonous snake; you are quite kind-hearted."

Yama: "Not a poisonous snake. It was a non-venomous one."

Practitioner Su: "What kind of snake? A non-venomous one is a rat snake."

Yama: "Yes, I was reborn as a rat snake. I wasn't very big; my body wasn't very large."

Practitioner Su: "How long until you came up? Did anyone take refuge for you?"

Yama: "I was in a pigsty, and there was a pile of wood behind it. The person raising the pigs saw me in the woodpile."

Practitioner Su: "The pig farmer took refuge for you?"

Yama: "Yes. The pig farmer later cleaned the pigsty, saw me, and helped me take refuge."

Practitioner Su: "So you came up from the animal realm?"

Yama: "Yes! The pig farmer stopped raising pigs, and when he was cleaning out the entire sty, he saw me and helped me take refuge."

Practitioner Su: "You have very good affinities. Look, life after life has passed, and you have gone through many lifetimes. Hell was in your seventh life, but in your past lives, you did very well—you were a woman, married, sold paper, and gave to the private schools. Even small acts of Generosity allowed you to be elevated."

Yama: "Fixed, regular Generosity. What wasn't easy was that we had fixed, regular Generosity."

Practitioner Su: "Indeed. Your three sons were also quite good, right?"

Yama: "I had three sons, not two. I had three sons when I was making paper."

Practitioner Su: "Three. They were all good, right?"

Yama: "My husband and I both had quite good personalities."

Practitioner Su: "Today's interview with the King of Yama has been wonderful. Every story shows that most people end up in hell because they bring it upon themselves. If they had communicated properly, it wouldn't have ended like that! King of the Fifth Hall, Yama, would you like to give us some teachings?"

Namo Amituofo."

King Yama: "People of the world must remember: whatever cause you plant, you will reap the corresponding fruit. If your mental notes are not rooted in Goodness, you will create negative causes. Therefore, you should strive to maintain a gentle temperament. Do not assume that your own way of thinking is always correct, and do not hurt others in the process—all of this creates grave sin! Most importantly, regarding the scriptures and Dharma books, they are the keys to opening one's Wisdom. You must never destroy or damage them; this is of the utmost importance! To destroy or damage them is truly a sin, a great sin!"

A Reunion of Souls

Practitioner Su: "Things are going well now. After your time in the Fifth Hall, you will also follow me to the Land of Real Reward."

King Yama: "Practitioner Su, all ten Kings of the Hells will follow you to rebirth in the Land of Real Reward!"

Practitioner Su: "We will all go to the Western Land together in the future, but for now, we must join forces to save the world. We shall now invite your mother, Du Shi Baomei."

Practitioner Jiaxian: "Du Shi Baomei has arrived."

King Yama: "Mother, you are currently in the Second Heaven. Now that your son has become the King of the Fifth Hall, I want to send you to the Western Land first. Shall we perform your Chao Du this Sunday?"

Du Shi Baomei: "I am deeply grateful for the compassion of Practitioner Su."

Practitioner Su: "Very well. First, I will place you on a lotus seat to listen to the scriptures. Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please, ascend the lotus seat. Pan Hongdan also needs Chao Du, correct? And Chen Ertong as well?"

King Yama: "Yes, indeed! Both of them require it."

The Ghost Realm's Humble Trades

Practitioner Su: "Where are they now? What is Pan Hongdan doing?"

King Yama: "He has changed roles; he is now selling cloth in the ghost realm. Hongdan is selling cloth there."

Practitioner Su: "I see. And what of Chen Ertong?"

King Yama: "How did Chen Ertong end up becoming a porter?"

Practitioner Su: "A porter in the ghost realm?"

King Yama: "Yes! He has a stall and is carrying a pole, selling peanut soup and cakes."

Practitioner Su: "Heavens! It is truly difficult to escape once you are in the ghost realm! Very well, let us invite them. Du Xingbao is the master, the cloth merchant. We must call for Pan Hongdan. Pan Hongdan, you are selling cloth—Pan Hongdan, can you hear me? You in the ghost realm, your master Du Xingbao is looking for you. Do you see your master?"

Practitioner Jiaxian: "Pan Hongdan has arrived."

Practitioner Su: "Your master is right there. Do you see him? He is performing Chao Du for you. You have been very loyal to him. Do you see him?"

Pan Hongdan: "Master, your clothes today look even more magnificent."

King Yama: "Hongdan!"

Pan Hongdan: "Where did you find this fabric? I could sell this too! Where is the wholesaler?"

King Yama: "This is very expensive, very expensive indeed! Hahaha! It is extremely precious."

Pan Hongdan: "I have never seen such expensive garments!"

King Yama: "Indeed, Hongdan!"

Pan Hongdan: "Master."

A Call to the Western Land

Practitioner Su: "Now, your master wants to call you to the Western Land. Look at the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss!"

King Yama: "Stop selling the cloth."

Practitioner Su: "He is calling you to the Western Land, so we are performing Chao Du for you now. Ascend the lotus seat and listen to the scriptures first, would you like that?"

Pan Hongdan: "But what about my shop?"

Practitioner Su: "Your shop is in the darkness. Now, your master wants to lead you into the light. Has he not saved you many times? Just listen to what he says."

Pan Hongdan: "Oh! Very well, I will listen to my master!"

Practitioner Su: "Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please, ascend the lotus seat—cover him! His mother also needs to be covered; Du Shi Baomei, Skanda Bodhisattva, cover her! Now for Pan Hongdan, Skanda Bodhisattva, cover him!"

"Now, let us invite Chen Ertong. He is selling peanut soup."

King Yama: "Peanut soup—he is carrying his pole and selling peanut soup."

Chen Ertong: "Selling peanuts! Who wants to buy? My peanuts are delicious!"

Practitioner Su: "Chen Ertong, Chen Ertong."

Chen Ertong: "Who is calling me? Who wants to buy?"

Practitioner Su: "Your master, Du Xingbao, is looking for you. Your master is right there."

Chen Ertong: "Oh! Master, it has been so long! You look so different."

King Yama: "Ertong! Why have you turned to selling peanut soup?"

Chen Ertong: "With you gone, Master, I didn't know how to work with cloth, so I changed trades to sell peanut soup."

King Yama: "You don't need to sell it anymore. You don't need to sell it anymore."

Chen Ertong: "Why?"

Practitioner Su: "He wants you to look over there. Do you see the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss? He wants to take you to the Western Land."

Chen Ertong: "Master, you want to take me there? It is so beautiful! Wow!"

Practitioner Su: "Do you want to be with him?"

Chen Ertong: "Of course I do! Master is a good man."

Practitioner Su: "Then ascend the lotus seat. Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please, ascend the lotus seat. Skanda Bodhisattva, cover him!"

Past Lives and Karmic Debts

"Now, we must invite someone from seven lifetimes ago. He was called Chen Dalin, and his wife was Wang Xiuchun. Wang Xiuchun is currently in the ghost realm."

King Yama: "She is in the ghost realm acting as a monastic, but she is crying."

Practitioner Su: "Wang Xiuchun, Chen Dalin is calling you. Wang Xiuchun."

Wang Xiuchun: (Crying, while her hand mimics the motion of striking a wooden fish.)

Practitioner Su: "I see you are obsessed with the Buddha—obsessed, yet still crying! Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please, ascend the lotus seat. Wake up first and look above (pointing toward the Western Land)! Do you see it? The Buddha is there. Your former husband, Chen Dalin, whom you married in the past, has now become King Yama."

Wang Xiuchun: "I am sorry to you, Dalin!"

King Yama: "I am also sorry to you, Xiuchun. I know I was wrong; please forgive me."

Practitioner Su: "Look over there at the light. You want to go to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, don't you? You believe in the Buddha, so now you must listen to the scriptures. I will first give you refuge and place you on a lotus seat. Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please, ascend the lotus seat. Skanda Bodhisattva, cover her! This Sunday, I will call out, and we will bring them to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss to send them off."

"My Buddha is compassionate. We have visited the Fifth Hall, and whether it is the Twenty-Eight Heavens or the Fifth Hall, your family members can all seek Spiritual Deliverance. This is truly inconceivable. Let them listen to the scriptures for two more days; they must now listen to the scriptures to recognise the great compassion of Amitabha Buddha."

King Yama: "Practitioner Su, when I was a woman, I made paper. I had a son who also needs to be saved."

Practitioner Su: "Very well, that is possible."

King Yama: "My other two sons are in the human world."

Practitioner Su: "We cannot perform Chao Du for those in the human world. You were making paper back then?"

King Yama: "Back then I was making cotton-padded jackets and paper. My name was (writing down: Wu Renmei)..."

Practitioner Su: "Which realm is your son in?"

King Yama: "My son fell into the hells, specifically the Hell of Pounding and Burning (writing down: Lin Shijia)."

Practitioner Su: "Only those who commit adultery end up in the Hell of Pounding and Burning. Wu Renmei, the past life of Du Xingbao, only has this one son in that hell. Wu Renmei, call your son, Lin Shijia. Which son is this?"

King Yama: "My second son."

Lin Shijia: (Emits a scream of extreme agony.)

Practitioner Su: "Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. Please, ascend the lotus seat. Lin Shijia, how did you end up in the Hell of Pounding and Burning? Your mother has come to save you; your mother is Wu Renmei."

Lin Shijia: "I was a pimp in the world."

Practitioner Su: "A pimp. This is the situation: look at your mother over there; she has already become King Yama. Now look toward the West. Your mother wants to save you. Listen to the scriptures first, and this Sunday, we will perform Chao Du to send you to the Western Land."

Lin Shijia: "It hurts! It hurts!"

Practitioner Su: "The lower body—it is likely because of his pimping. Take refuge in the Buddha, and you shall not enter the hells; take refuge in the Dharma, and you shall not fall into the hungry ghost realm; take refuge in the Sangha, and you shall not fall into the animal realm. May the Buddha-water irrigate you. Now, ascend the lotus seat and listen to the scriptures. Skanda Bodhisattva, cover him! The second son has also been called."

"Congratulations, King Yama. Now your mother, Du Shi Baomei, your housekeeper, Pan Hongdan, and Chen Ertong—who was Wang Xiuchun, the wife of Chen Dalin, when he reincarnated into the hells—have all been addressed. In that previous life, I said you did very well and performed much Generosity! Your son has also been saved; your second son is Lin Shijia, and you were Wu Renmei."

"Very well, we thank King Yama for granting us this interview today. Let us chant the Buddha-name ten times to send off King Yama."

(Practitioner Su leads the fellow practitioners in chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha ten times to send off the King of the Fifth Hall, King Yama.)