This is a record of an interview with Lay Practitioner Zhuo Zunhai, who sought deliverance at the Hsiang Kuang Buddhist Centre in Australia. He currently resides in the Tushita Outer Court and reflects upon his life approximately two hundred years ago during the Qing Dynasty. This interview was recorded by Practitioner Su on May 6, 2014.
Practitioner Su speaks:
". I am here to invite Lay Practitioner Zhuo Zunhai from the Tushita Outer Court. Where are you from? It is such a to see you! You have such a radiant, smiling face. Have we met before?"
Lay Practitioner Zhuo Zunhai speaks:
"(Laughing) I have come to know you through listening to your lectures on the , though you do not yet know me."
A Connection Beyond Time
"Do not say that! We are all one in the eyes of the Buddha; therefore, we are already acquainted. Your group from the Tushita Outer Court is so incredibly enthusiastic today! May I ask, where were you from in the world?"
"I was from Hebei."
"How long have you been in the Tushita Outer Court?"
"Not very long. I suppose you could say I have just arrived!"
"Just arrived? In this current defiled world, it is truly remarkable that you were able to cultivate yourself to the level of the Tushita Outer Court!"
"Ah! It was indeed a defiled world back then as well."
Reflections on the Qing Dynasty
"How long ago was that?"
"It was approximately two hundred years ago."
"Oh! Two hundred years ago—that would be the Qing Dynasty."
"Indeed. And here, I am still considered a newcomer."
"Why did they recommend you to come forward for this interview? Is it because you are closer to our current realm?"
"Because we heard that you would be conducting these interviews, and it was felt that those of us with a closer karmic affinity would find it easier to resonate and connect with your teachings."
The Mystery of Shizijue
"I see! When you arrived at the Tushita Outer Court, did you encounter Shizijue?"
"He is a very busy person!"
"But has he not already attained rebirth in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss? What do you mean he is a 'busy person'? I do not quite understand. I heard that Shizijue had gone to the Tushita Outer Court."
"Ah! It is not appropriate for me to speak of such things!"
"I understand. I have heard whispers of this before."
"However, he has indeed reached the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss."
The Nature of the Tushita Realm
"Yes. Wow! Once one attains true Wisdom, one can reach the Western Pure Land. I have heard that there are both men and women in your realm, is that correct? And that the women there are exceptionally beautiful?"
"Yes, they are very dignified."
"Let me ask you to verify something. I have heard my teacher explain in his lectures that although there are women in the Tushita Outer Court, one may only hold hands, not embrace. Is that true? Is it only hand-holding?"
"The desire to hold hands is already sufficient; why would one need to embrace?"
"I see! That is what my teacher said. And since there are so many beauties there—you have over three hundred billion beings in the Tushita Outer Court—are there any beautiful beings joining us today to seek rebirth in the Western Pure Land?"
"Of course, there are!"
Cultivation and the
"How do you practise there?"
"Although we have emotions between men and women here, we mostly stop at the level of propriety. Holding hands is generally acceptable. Beyond that, we spend most of our time in Meditation. However, because of these lingering desires, we are unable to enter the Inner Court."
"Is it because of the seven emotions and Five Desires?"
"These desires are a distraction; they make our meditative concentration shallow and our resolve unsteady."
"So, women are still a 'calamity' of sorts! You have done well to maintain your focus."
"Ah! It is not easy for the women who come to this place, either."
"Women have deeper emotions, do they not? Much deeper!"
"Aside from that, there are also those who are truly dedicated to cultivation."
The Cycle of Rebirth
"I heard my teacher say that Shizijue was captivated by the Tushita Outer Court before he could enter the Inner Court. Are the three brothers all in the Western Pure Land now?"
"I cannot speak of that. I can only speak of what I know, and I only know of two of them. How could I dare to speak of the others? I am but a junior!"
"You are so humble! Very respectful indeed. Tell me, do you experience the passage of time in the Tushita Outer Court?"
"Yes, there is a sense of time."
"And you are aware that you are still within the six realms of existence, still caught in the cycle of rebirth?"
"We are very aware that we are still in the cycle of rebirth."
The View from the Fourth Heaven
"Can you see the hells? Can you see the conditions there? Or are they hidden from you?"
"My meditative concentration only allows me to see them in a blurred way, not clearly. I only hear the groans of the beings there; I cannot see the inner workings of those realms."
"Since you are in the desire realm, how many levels can you see? We speak of the twenty-eight levels of heaven."
"Are you referring to the levels of heaven?"
"Yes, how many levels can you see?"
"I am at the fourth level. Naturally, the first, second, and third levels are clearly visible to me."
"So you are in the fourth level of the desire realm."
"Yes, the fourth level of the desire realm."
"Maitreya must be very close to you then!"
"He is very close. I am in the Outer Court, and Maitreya Bodhisattva is in the Inner Court."
The Path of Accumulating Goodness
"That is incredible! Do you also sustain yourselves with the joy of Meditation there?"
"Most of those who come here have some level of meditative concentration. Those who do not have such concentration are those who were virtuous in the world; they are people of great ."
"What are the conditions required to reach the Tushita Outer Court? Could you tell us?"
"The universe operates according to natural laws, much like the four lands of the Western Pure Land. Whatever state of mind one cultivates while in the world will naturally lead one to that realm. It is the same for those who ascend to the heavens. To reach the Tushita Heaven, one must be part of a family that accumulates Goodness; such families will surely have future Blessings. This Goodness not only changes one's own destiny but must also be passed on to future generations. Therefore, everyone should have their own method of accumulating Goodness. Without accumulating Goodness, it is difficult to reach the heavenly realms, let alone the Tushita Heaven. Goodness and Blessings are often mentioned together, though Blessings and merit are somewhat different. Those who reach this place are mostly those with great Blessings."
A Life of
"Lay Practitioner Zhuo, what did you do when you were in the world?"
"I was a landowner."
"Oh! A landowner—someone who owned land and collected rent. You must have been very wealthy!"
"It was acceptable; I had land."
"Under what circumstances were you able to reach the Tushita Outer Court?"
"It was through the collection of grain rent. I often chose not to collect it."
"You did not collect it? Your mind-capacity is truly vast!"
"Because most of the tenants were diligent or impoverished, when they brought the grain to my home, I would give half of it back to them. That half was enough to sustain their families. The remaining half went into my granary, and whenever there was a need, I would distribute the grain to help those around me, so they could have fewer worries and anxieties. In fact, because of this, they became even more diligent."
"Your heart is truly immense!"
"The hearts of the people were very simple back then."
Family and Wisdom
"You were very kind! You also practised the Giving of Fearlessness. Was your health good when you were alive?"
"It was acceptable, quite acceptable."
"How many children did you have?"
"I had four sons and two daughters."
"Since you were a wealthy landowner and cultivated so well, your children must have been very outstanding, right?"
"Under the protection of the heavens, my children witnessed my daily actions and learned a thing or two. After they grew up, I handed the management of the land and the rent over to them. My daughters married well and lived comfortable lives. My daughters-in-law were virtuous, so our family lived in harmony."
"Wow! A family that accumulates Goodness is truly different. You raised your children so well! What about your wife?"
"My wife also liked to go to the temple to offer incense and be close to the masters. She would say that every time she entered the temple and knelt before the Buddha, she felt as if all her worldly troubles and afflictions were handed over to the Buddha!"
"Your wife was very wise and intelligent."
"Yes. She enjoyed preparing incense, flowers, and vegetarian offerings with the maids to take to the temple. She was very virtuous and would return home promptly after her prayers."
The Fruits of Virtue
"Since you have reached the Tushita Outer Court, where is your wife now?"
"Because of her actions, she also performed many small acts of Giving. She had a good habit: whenever she went to the temple, she loved to register for the grain distribution charity."
"She was truly a person of great Blessings. She understood the profound Blessings of those who practise Giving."
"She would register, and she was quite generous with her contributions."
"She had the money, so she could be generous! She had wisdom."
"Yes. Everyone was happy to see her enter the temple. Unknowingly, she was practising the Giving of Fearlessness."
"Where is your wife now?"
"My wife is currently in a household that practises the Buddha’s teachings. She is now a dedicated vegetarian."
"Was she reincarnated into a good family?"
"Yes, and she is very dignified in appearance."
"And your children? They are all doing well, right? They are still in the cycle of rebirth, but they are doing well?"
"They are all still in the cycle of rebirth."
"Are any of them in the animal realm? My Buddha is compassionate and can help them."
"Ah! Fortunately, no! Fortunately, no!"
The Final Transition
"You educated them very well! At what age did you pass away? Did you pass away due to illness?"
"I was in my sixties, having already passed my sixtieth birthday."
"What were the circumstances of your passing? Were you ill?"
"After my birthday celebration, I took the gifts I had received from friends, relatives, and neighbors—I could not refuse them, so I accepted them. But I did not keep any of these gifts; I gave them all to the long-term workers and maids. They were very happy to receive them. Half a month later, I felt slightly unwell. It was not serious, just a sense of fatigue; I wanted to lie down and did not want to get up. Two days later, the maids and workers were very nervous and stayed by my side to take care of me."
"Were your children not by your side?"
"My children were busy in the fields, though they were very concerned. I had always had a very good relationship with the workers and maids."
"You were very compassionate!"
"After two days, my health did not improve despite the doctor's visit. I thought, 'Let it be; perhaps it is time.' I divided the land among my children and also gave some to the workers and maids."
"Your mind-capacity is so vast!"
"I felt their dedication to the household. Two days later, something truly miraculous happened! I had previously met the father of one of my workers. This man appeared before me, looking very dignified and auspicious. I went to greet him, and he began to walk forward, following a light. I followed him, and we entered this place—the Tushita Outer Court."
"His father was also in the Tushita Outer Court?"
"(Nods) That worker was very humble and had a good upbringing. It was only because his father had been unsuccessful in life that he had become a worker. His father was a reserved and cultivated man. He had a good friend in the Tushita Heaven, and since heavenly beings know the situation of ordinary people, he knew I had treated his son well. When the time came, he came to receive me."
"That is truly miraculous! So you just had a slight cold, went to sleep, followed the light, and arrived at the Tushita Outer Court."
"That is exactly what happened!"
A Message for Future Generations
"It has been over two hundred years since you arrived. Now, we all wish to reach the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. Could you offer some teachings to future generations? People need to accumulate Goodness to reach the heavens, but now, we do not need to aim for the heavens; we must aim for the Western Pure Land. I have interviewed many heavenly beings, and they all have very kind hearts and have accumulated much merit. Could you share the conditions for ascending to the heavens, and perhaps how one might elevate their grade of rebirth?"
"Although education is now widespread and everyone can read and has the opportunity to earn money without having to look at others' faces, people have different levels of Blessings. There will always be differences in professions, but those in high positions should never look down on those in lower positions; every life is a precious Dharma-life. Perhaps that person had a karmic connection with you in a past life, and they are simply experiencing poor circumstances in this life. Since you have the affinity to be together, you should treat each other well. If you have more than you need, you should share it with others; do not hoard it! You must know that hoarding is the greatest loss to oneself. Today, there are many impoverished children who have lost their parents, and many who have turned to crime. If you have one, give one; if you have two, give two. If you have extra items at home, donate them often. Do not think these things are insignificant; for someone who lacks them, they are treasures. This is also a way to form good karmic affinities. Who knows? The person you help might have been your benefactor in a past life! This is a way to repay debts and eliminate your own spiritual obstacles."
"Your teachings are truly excellent! This is an education that can be passed down for ten thousand generations. The Six Paramitas and the practice of Giving are all about having a vast heart. Lay Practitioner Zhuo, today there are 358,466,365,838 of you here. You can all elevate your grade of rebirth today. You have Wisdom! You knew that even with wealth, one must practise Giving. This is a truly immense heart. You can attain the highest grade of rebirth; please ascend to your lotus seat. Namo Amituofo."
"Namo Amituofo."
What do the Buddhas and Tathagatas teach without interruption? It is nothing more than the truth of nature and characteristics. They are awakened to the truth of nature and characteristics, while we are deluded and have lost sight of this truth. However, the difference in the karmic results of and delusion is vast. Those who are awakened live in the One True Dharma Realm, while those who are deluded struggle in the six realms and the three paths, suffering beyond description. The difference in results between delusion and awakening—suffering and joy—is inconceivable and cannot be fully expressed. The key to the Buddha's teachings is to help beings awaken and transcend the cycle of birth and death; it is by no means merely academic study.
