The Logic of Universal Love: An Interview with Mozi

This is a record of an interview with Mo Di (Mozi), who sought Chao Du [Spiritual Deliverance] at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now resides in the Western Land of Dharma Nature. This account reflects upon his life approximately 2,400 years ago. Recorded by the chief writer, Venerable Shi Faru, on March 31, 2026.

Mo Di (Mozi) speaks:

"Namo Amituofo. I am Mo Di, known to many as Mozi. My heart has always been aligned with the teachings of the sages, not for the sake of seeking official rank or personal status, but because my heart has always been tethered to the welfare of all beings under heaven. I have always sought to understand the unseen, to ensure that even in the shadows, there is no violation of the truth.

I utilised scientific principles and logical reasoning as a skilful means to discern the true needs of the common people. I travelled across many states to counsel the rulers of my time, hoping to guide them toward a path that would elevate the world to a state of peace. Now, having heard the Buddha’s teachings in the Western Land of Dharma Nature, I have been assisted in bringing the essence of Mohism back to the Pure Land. When the heart is free from the self and free from biased views, it can truly resonate with the heart of the true Buddha.

The Essence of Universal Governance

The world is vast, and there is nothing that does not exist within it. I was born into an era of constant warfare, a time when a hundred schools of thought were contending for influence. The principles I promoted for governing a state and managing the world were, in truth, remarkably simple and essential. I realised that any principle which fails to align with nature—or which fails to achieve the goal of peace and stability for the people using the simplest procedures and the least amount of energy—cannot be the true Way. My life’s work was dedicated to this singular goal: achieving a peaceful world and stable lives for the people through the most efficient and straightforward means possible.

In reality, the reason I broke my philosophy down into so many specific categories was that, when presented with such simple and essential truths, most people—even the kings and scholars who had studied the classics and were well-versed in rites and music—could not grasp them. I had to frame my teachings in ways that sounded beneficial and logical to them so that they would be willing to accept and implement them.

The Core of Universal Love

The concept of 'Universal Love' refers to the necessity of breaking through the limitations of the self. We must learn to empathise with and care for all people broadly and equally, rather than confining our compassion to a narrow, limited circle. This kind of universal love is the most effective way to eliminate the hearts of opposition and conflict between individuals. This is the core value of my philosophy.

The principle of 'Non-Aggression' is equally simple. When a human being is born into this world, their life is incredibly precious. If one can contribute to their family and country, even if that life lasts only a few short decades, it is a life well-lived, especially given the turbulent background of my era. To spend one's limited life in the pursuit of war, merely to expand the borders of a state, is a tragedy. I ask you: which territory does not already belong to someone? What is the true meaning of forcibly transferring a region from one state to another? The manpower, material resources, and the sacrifice of lives required for such transitions are immense. It leads to endless wars, suffering for the masses, and constant natural and man-made disasters. It is merely replacing one ruler with another. Is such a massive sacrifice truly necessary? This is the core spirit of 'Non-Aggression'.

The Wisdom of Meritocracy

'Exalting the Worthy' refers to the governance of a state and the management of vital responsibilities. Such roles must be filled by those who possess talent, wisdom, and the capacity for tolerance and virtue. They must be capable of the task, not merely appointed because of personal connections or nepotism. If mediocre people are placed in charge of a country or important duties, the order will collapse, leading to the decline of the nation. 'Exalting the Worthy' is a win-win approach; it breaks down rigid class systems and professional barriers. Its core lies in allowing specialists in every field to utilise their strengths and effectively manage their respective domains. Promoting such individuals to official positions is the essence of this practice. This approach makes the best use of human resources, reduces unnecessary bureaucratic layers, and ensures that those with professional expertise govern their own fields. This is the only truly effective and practical management method.

The Harmony of Shared Purpose

The core spirit of 'Identifying with the Superior' is that those above and those below must be of one heart. The superior must empathise with the voices and needs of the subordinates, and the subordinates must promptly reflect all phenomena, situations, and problems back to the superior. When a leader makes a decision that does not serve the interests of the greater collective, the subordinates should provide feedback immediately. Regardless of one's position, everyone must align with the Heavenly Way—that is, the Truth, the righteous path, and moral foundations. This is the law of the universe, and it must not be violated. Every level of society must follow the overall common welfare rather than pursuing personal gain. This is the essence of 'Identifying with the Superior'.

The Virtue of Frugality

The concept of 'Economy of Expenditure' involves removing unnecessary, cumbersome, and luxurious things to focus on what is truly essential. There is no need for extra expenses that consume pointless manpower, material resources, and national strength. One must focus on how to maintain the operation of the state with the least amount of resources and the lowest economic cost; this is the key to a nation’s prosperity. If one does the opposite—wasting resources on entertainment and unnecessary matters—it will deplete the nation’s strength. Do not underestimate this frugality, thinking it is optional; it is not. Every bit of savings gathered from every corner becomes the foundation of a nation’s strength.

'Economy of Funerals' is intended to ensure that a nation remains prosperous by focusing on the living. As for those who have passed away, expressing sufficient mourning in one's heart is enough. There is no need for excessive, complicated rituals that waste vast amounts of manpower and resources. This also aligns with the core philosophy of national development. If we cannot even take care of the living, how can we have the energy to care for the dead?

Even if a country is prosperous for a time, it will eventually face decline. However, once a funeral system is established and becomes a custom, it is difficult to remove. Therefore, when establishing a system, one must consider the conditions of the country across all periods. Otherwise, if complex rituals are mandated, by the time the nation’s strength wanes, these rituals will have become deeply ingrained beliefs that cannot be easily violated without drawing public criticism. These pressures—psychological, financial, and material—will cause the nation to stagnate and become a cause of decline. Therefore, defining a simple funeral system from the very beginning is of great benefit to the development of the nation.

The Distraction of Entertainment

The main point of 'Condemning Music' is this: is entertainment truly necessary? Can the people not survive without musical entertainment? Most people believe music can be used for leisure and to cultivate one's temperament, but is it really music that allows the people to have enough food and clothing and to rest and recover? What truly allows the people to survive is having clothes to wear, food to eat, a house to live in, and a skill to master, thereby stabilising their lives and economic sources. This is what the people truly need. However, the promotion of music and various forms of entertainment is detrimental to production. Time is limited; if manpower is diverted to music-related work, it will inevitably compress the time available for other productive activities. When a country is strong and has abundant manpower, the impact of developing these entertainments may seem limited; however, a nation is not always prosperous. Once people become accustomed to entertainment and rely on music to satisfy their inner emptiness, they will eventually find it impossible to let go. When the nation’s strength is relatively weak, or when it faces foreign invasion, the country needs to concentrate all its power to stabilise the situation, maintain basic infrastructure, and provide for the people’s necessities. At such times, these entertainments become a poison to the nation. This is the core philosophy behind 'Condemning Music'.

The Strength of Human Will

The theory of 'Against Fatalism' does not entirely deny the existence of destiny. Its main purpose is to remind people that they cannot blindly attribute all current situations, decline, or failure to 'Heavenly Mandate' or their personal fate. In any environment, even in adversity, one must still use one's own efforts to reverse and improve the harsh conditions. 'Against Fatalism' does not claim that a person will always get what they want, but rather that when facing the trials of reality and the torments of fate, one should maintain an unyielding mindset and strive to change the situation within one's own capabilities. If you encounter national turmoil, find a way to govern; if you encounter disharmony among the people, find a way to mediate; if you lack skills, find a way to learn; if you find yourself lacking, find a way to consult the sages. This is your duty, not to blame fate. If one passively blames fate, it is equivalent to giving up on life. This is the core assertion of 'Against Fatalism'.

The Will of Heaven and the Presence of Spirits

The so-called 'Will of Heaven' refers to aligning with and conforming to the laws of the universe and the will of the Heavens. Using 'Heaven' as a substitute, it refers to the entire natural order, the world, and the principles by which the universe operates. If one violates this 'Will of Heaven', one is violating one's own conscience and morality, which will lead to self-destruction. The principles of the universe are formed by the interaction of all things in the unseen, and the philosophy is difficult to explain in words. However, in that era, people generally had a great respect for 'Heaven', so using 'Heaven' to refer to this natural order was a way that people could more easily accept. Therefore, following the 'Will of Heaven' means conforming to the laws of the universe and using one's own conscience as the standard for one's actions.

'Clarifying Spirits' refers to the importance of 'ghosts and spirits'. In that era, there was a widespread habit of offering sacrifices, and people had a certain foundation for understanding ghosts and spirits. However, 'those who believe will always believe, and those who do not will not'. This depends on individual perception. The main purpose of 'Clarifying Spirits' is to remind people not to engage in actions that harm others or violate the interests of the family and country simply because they are alone and unseen by others. The perfect embodiment of moral conscience must be maintained even when no one else is watching. This is the true intention of 'Clarifying Spirits'. Namo Amituofo."

From the various theories and doctrines I have proposed, it is not difficult to see that the core philosophy of governing a nation is quite simple and plain: it is to follow nature. By taking the most minimalist, necessary, and fundamental needs of the people as the core consideration, one should develop the nation's various constructions and formulate laws and systems in all aspects, which are then observed by both the ruler and the people together. This is the Mohist doctrine I promoted. I have no intention of criticising Confucianism, but some of its overly cumbersome rituals lead to unnecessary consumption, which has a certain degree of impact on national strength.

The Efficiency of Simple Governance

Of course, the Duke of Zhou established rituals and music, and Confucius promoted Confucianism in that way for the reasons of that era. But I personally believe that to truly govern a country and ensure its long-term stability and smooth operation, it should be done in the most economical way. It does not require too many frills and formalities; rather, considering the most basic needs from the most fundamental and practical direction is the truly useful and efficient approach.

I spent my life striving to promote such a method, undoubtedly hoping that various nations could avoid war and unnecessary consumption. Since a nation has been established, it should be allowed to enjoy long-term peace and stability without needing too many changes or causing unnecessary sacrifices.

Against Artificial Expansion

The development of the nation at that time was meant to follow the movements of heaven and earth; it naturally has its own cycles of growth and decline. There is no need to use artificial means to forcibly expand territory or annex other countries. These are practices that go against morality and the principles of the operation of heaven and earth. They all belong to the category of 'spinning a cocoon to trap oneself'—they bring a hundred harms and not a single benefit, and ultimately, they are all acts against heaven that will inevitably lead to self-destruction. Throughout my life, I have 'embodied the Dharma through my own actions' as a model for such concepts and doctrines, actively travelling to various countries to promote these ideas. In this regard, I still quite admire Confucius and follow his example; after all, he was also actively promoting his own ideas among various nations, hoping to help people, improve their lives, and allow the nation to be stable.

If such a doctrine remains merely on paper and in text and cannot be truly implemented in various countries, then it becomes empty talk. I also understand that making various nations believe, submit to, and identify with these concepts is not an easy task. After all, the monarchs, their respective courts, and the scholars of each country all have their own ideas and various ways of speaking and acting, and there is no shortage of selfish considerations among the literati. To make them willing to accept and adopt these ideas is not easy; one must possess considerable strength to promote this set of doctrines. One must use various 'skillful means' to make the monarchs and feudal lords believe in my doctrines and theories. I also had to propose many practical methods of governance and various scientific techniques so that they would believe I was not just engaging in empty talk, but truly possessed academic ability and the conditions for implementation. Travelling between countries and lobbying the various states allowed people to begin to recognise Mozi and Mohist teachings. I had many disciples, all of whom were talents and elites in various fields, willing to believe in the methods I promoted and to propagate my ideas. Many feudal lords were also attracted by my scientific techniques, which made them willing to believe in my doctrines. After travelling to various countries, my physical strength gradually declined, and I left the world in my eighties. I instructed my many disciples to continue to promote and propagate these principles and ideas, ensuring that nations would not have too many conflicts.

Watching from the Heavens

After my death, I ascended directly to the eighteenth heaven. In the heavenly realms, I continued to guard my disciples, helping them to continue to propagate these ideas, hoping to reduce unnecessary conflicts on the land of China. Guarding above this land for nearly two thousand four hundred years is, for the heavenly realms, just the blink of an eye. Watching the situation on the ground from the heavens, although I felt some emotion, this is also a natural phenomenon of the operation of heaven and earth. It seems that future generations did not understand my doctrines and the methods I promoted. Numerous wars also caused the people on this land of China to suffer, which is something I was powerless to change.

Watching people live and die, wars erupting frequently, and bringing about their own destruction from the heavens, I could not help them. I could only seize the opportunity to convey the methods I promoted to those who could resonate with me, transmitting positive beliefs to them in the unseen realm, allowing them to consider the country and the people as much as possible and reduce their own selfish interests. In modern times, although there are still people of high ideals born in China who are dedicated to their families and the country, the general environment has become increasingly selfish.

A New Stage of Deliverance

The situation of ideological development being as it is now is also a principle of natural operation, and I cannot intervene. However, I still continue to guard every civilian on the land of China, and even the ethnic groups on the borders of China. If their ideas are the same as mine, I can also convey some messages to improve and influence their thoughts. A few days ago, I knew that this karmic connection of mine had come to an end and I was about to enter a new stage.

This transformation comes from Practitioner Su leading the Amitabha Buddha salvation team to conduct large-scale Chao Du in China. Many creatures who lost their lives in wars and people suffering in various spaces are all trapped, and their suffering spirits are difficult to liberate. This made me curious: what kind of Causal Conditions could allow these originally suffering spirits to be liberated? And I followed this large-scale Chao Du conducted by Practitioner Su and entered the Western Land of Dharma Nature.

The Depth of Buddha’s Teachings

In the Western Land of Dharma Nature, I came into contact with the Buddha’s teachings. Although I had heard of them slightly in the heavenly realms, my level of understanding was not very high; perhaps the opportunity had not yet matured. While listening to the teachings of Amitabha Buddha and the Dharma talks by Practitioner Su in the Dharma-Nature Land, I was surprised to discover that the Buddha’s teachings actually coincide with many of my own ideas. The profundity and subtlety of the Buddha’s teachings indeed pointed out the shortcomings in my own thoughts and theories. This made me sigh with emotion; it turns out that the concepts I promoted still had deficiencies. And these subtle points must be understood deeply through the Buddha’s teachings to discern the differences.

Simply put, the Mohism I promoted prioritised the welfare of the country, the people, and a natural life, but it did not completely let go of the concept of 'self'. There was still partiality, interest, and calculation. From the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings, this belongs to the realm of selfishness; there is still gain, loss, and comparison, which means there is still discrimination.

The 'oneness' view of the Buddha’s teachings, and even the complete 'no-self', is far beyond the realm of 'Universal Equality'. The level involved in 'Universal Equality' is about cooperation between the higher and lower levels—a form of cooperation where the higher accommodates the lower and the lower understands the higher, each taking what they need to reach a balance. However, the 'no-self' of the Buddha’s teachings is to completely and utterly let go of the self, sincerely and genuinely acting for the sake of all beings. Even if it means sacrificing oneself or damaging one's own interests, one does not hesitate; it is entirely for the sake of all beings, without any consideration for oneself.

The Root of the Problem

When I first heard this, I thought it was somewhat impractical. However, thinking back, the 'Universal Equality' I founded, although it meets the needs of human nature, did not truly and thoroughly remove the basic desires of human nature. Now I also know that as long as there are desires and personality, there will be loopholes to be exploited. This exploitation refers to one's own 'demon nature'.

Actually, my principles and methods could have been practically implemented. However, the most difficult part lies in whether people have sufficient self-restraint and control. The laws are placed before them, the principles are written before their eyes, but how much can one actually execute? How much is one willing to believe in one's heart, and how much is one willing to obey? There is a great difference between these.

Practitioner Su conducted Chao Du for various spaces in China, which also included the major Demon Realms of China, and destroyed their demon palaces. This made me realise with a start that this is the biggest loophole in my doctrine—under the influence of human personality and demon nature, people will deviate and be unwilling to follow various rules.

This is the same situation I encountered when I was travelling to various countries and promoting the methods I followed. Now that I understand, a considerable part of this is controlled by the Demon Realm, and everything becomes very reasonable. People understand the principles, but that does not mean they can always execute them according to the principles. This so-called 'inability to control, inability to be autonomous' is the root of the real problem.

Listening to Practitioner Su’s explanations in the Dharma-Nature Land, and listening to the teachings of Amitabha Buddha and the Teacher, I finally understood the severity of this problem; it is not something that any single doctrine can solve. Only by following the Buddha’s education, truly changing one's personality to zero, and truly removing every bit of one's selfishness and ego-attachment can one possibly avoid being controlled by the Demon Realm.

If one cannot achieve this level, no matter how good the principles are, or how much one considers the real needs of people, when facing the test of one's own personality, if one cannot be autonomous, what is the use of talking about more principles?

If one cannot control one's own beliefs and actions, then even if one understands many principles, one cannot fully execute them. The true profundity of the Buddha’s teachings lies in the ability to truly point out the core of the problem and guide people to the real methods of changing their destiny.

In the Buddha’s education of Amitabha Buddha, the concept of 'ghosts' is also more clearly defined. It is not just the existence of invisible spirits staring at people in places where no one is present, but it is expanded to include all sentient beings in the spiritual realms. The existence of the spiritual realms can be said to be endless, dense, and immeasurable; their numbers are countless.

The vastness of the 'ten directions' is something I only understood in the 'Dharma-Nature Land'. It turns out that the land of China and the Earth we inhabit are very small compared to the ten directions. In the infinite and boundless spaces of the ten directions, there exist infinite and boundless spirits, all of which are so-called 'ghosts', and also so-called 'spirits'. Without the Buddha’s teachings to unravel this, I could not have understood such a situation. Although I knew about spirits and infinite beings in the heavenly realms, I had not yet thoroughly understood the vastness of the ten directions, the greatness of heaven and earth, and the demon beings and demon palaces in the deep spaces. Namo Amituofo.

Through the grace of Namo Amituofo, who opened layer upon layer of space, and through the work of Practitioner Su, who has performed Chao Du for infinite suffering beings, guiding them into the Dharma-Nature Land, I have witnessed the sheer magnitude of these beings. They are as vast as the tides of the ocean. Only through this experience could I truly and thoroughly understand that the nature of a spirit is not a trivial matter that can be dismissed in a few simple sentences.

The Universal Principle and the Path of the Practitioner

By aligning with the Will of Heaven, the Buddha’s teachings are revealed to be far more profound and precise. What is known as the Will of Heaven is, in essence, the universal principle, and Namo Amituofo is the ultimate practitioner of this universal principle. The title of practitioner is not one to be used lightly; it requires one to completely refine their personality and mental notes to a point of absolute zero. One must be truly selfless, acting entirely for the sake of all beings, and maintaining a state of pure Goodness. Only then can one be called a true practitioner of the universal principle.

I once believed that such a standard was far too rigorous and impossible to implement in reality. Now, I realise that only those who truly follow the universal principle can be free from the demon nature that arises from a deviation in thought, and thus avoid self-destruction. This level of strictness is not something that can be interpreted according to one’s own convenience or self-righteousness. The universal principle is absolute and clear; it does not tolerate even the slightest deviation.

The Truth of the Body and the Folly of Attachment

Regarding the concept of frugal burial, the Buddha’s teachings are far more thorough. As Practitioner Su has often explained, the physical body is merely a worn-out garment. We bring nothing into this world at birth, and we take nothing with us at death; there is no need for such deep attachment. Once the body is consumed by fire, there is truly nothing left. There is no need for elaborate rituals or excessive, lingering grief. It is only through Buddhist education that I have come to understand that human beings can be free from aging and illness, and that the spirit never dies. This is a teaching I had never encountered before. However, looking at it now from the perspective of a spirit, it is undeniably true that the spirit never dies. The fact that I am currently here in the Dharma-Nature Land, explaining these profound truths to you all, is sufficient proof that I, Mo Di, have not perished; I have merely changed my state of existence as a spirit and continue to live in a different world.

People must come to understand that this physical body is just a tattered garment. There is no need to mourn its dissolution, nor is there any need for an extravagant burial. Respect and solemnity are sufficient; the most important thing is to ensure that one’s heart remains untainted by attachment.

A Reflection on Moism and the Urgency of Buddhist Education

Having explained so much, I see that my own philosophy of Moism and the Buddha’s teachings share a common thread of acting for the sake of all beings. However, compared to the true Buddha’s teachings, my philosophy appears incomplete—it is, in truth, a simplified and partial version of the Buddha’s teachings.

Because Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su saved me and brought me to the Dharma-Nature Land, I have gained a deeper level of understanding of the Buddha’s teachings. I now clearly see how to strengthen and perfect the theories and concepts I once proposed. The universe is filled with wonders beyond imagination. The scientific and technical knowledge I once championed was indeed a form of skillful means for that era, allowing the people to find faith and order. Yet, in different worlds and across different spaces, such knowledge has no place to be applied. This is the Wisdom of the Buddha and Bodhisattvas—to teach the masses using methods that they are capable of accepting within their specific time and space.

Standing here now, having been introduced to Buddhist education for the first time in the Dharma-Nature Land, I must admit that this is truly the most urgent necessity for the people of China today. It is essential to vigorously promote Buddhist education so that people can awaken from such chaotic environments and break free from the control of demon crowds. This is my profound realisation here in the Dharma-Nature Land.

I am deeply grateful to Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su for saving me and bringing me to this place. I, Mo Di, bow in gratitude to Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su for granting me this supreme opportunity to learn.

Namo Amituofo.

Mo Di