This is a record of an interview with the spirit of Venerable Master Chin Kung, who now resides in the Western Land of Nature. He reflects upon his transition from the human world, his ongoing observations from the spiritual realm, and the profound difference between human learning and spiritual experience. Recorded by the chief writer, Venerable HaiZe, on November 3, 2022.
Venerable HaiZe speaks:
". Today, Namo Amituofo has given me a topic to discuss with Venerable Master Chin Kung: 'The Disciples.' As the saying goes, 'The Dharma has no fixed form; one must adapt to the capacity of the listener and act accordingly.'
Venerable Master Chin Kung speaks:
"Namo Amituofo. To be honest, I feel that whether it is the terminology I use or the content of my lectures, everyone has become so accustomed to my style that perhaps no one is interested in listening anymore. The community has shown absolutely no reaction. Surprisingly, the response from the spiritual realms has been far more enthusiastic than that from the human world."
The Unseen Classroom of the Dharma-Nature Land
"I have been listening to Practitioner Su’s lectures here in the Western Land of Dharma Nature, and I have not missed a single session. Of course, I am 'tethered' to my lotus seat—it is an invisible tether, meant to put our minds at ease, ensuring we stay put. But while it can restrain the spirit, it cannot restrain the heart. The heart remains active and functional. Some beings, upon sitting on their lotus seats, need time to settle their minds before they can truly listen to the Dharma. Others settle down the moment they sit. New arrivals often experience this restlessness, but eventually, in the pure and good environment of the Western Land of Dharma Nature, most find peace. Many beings who come here seeking find it easier to settle their minds and listen. There are also many monastics among us, and I am one of them."
Beyond the Limits of Human Learning
"In the previous forty-plus interviews, I used my habitual way of lecturing, supplemented by my spiritual experiences since leaving the human world and what I have witnessed here. I have gained so much. This is not something one could learn in the human world. Human learning is based on tangible written records, interpersonal communication, or one's own insights and . But here in the Dharma-Nature Land, everything is based on spiritual experience. Although there are no books, physical materials, or substantial data to look at, what I have learned far exceeds what is found in books. Every single event here provides a moment of profound awakening.
After all, in the Five Turbidities and Evil World, everyone’s thoughts and messages interfere with one another. A practitioner must possess meditative concentration and remain undisturbed by these external environments to achieve purification and rediscover their true nature. While I was in the Five Turbidities and Evil World, I had not yet realised my true nature; I still harboured selfishness and a sense of 'self.' Therefore, my level of purification was not yet perfectly pure and good. However, having dedicated sixty years to lecturing on the Dharma, I can see that the actions and words of those who have truly realised their true nature far surpass my own. This shows how precious such awakened beings are in the human world! You must understand the hidden meaning in my words. Sometimes, when I speak too clearly, you do not seem to like it. For instance, when I name names, you feel a bit uncomfortable, as if there is a knot in your heart. This is simply a sign that your mind-capacity is not yet large enough. Of course, a teacher must always adapt to the hearts of the people so that they can truly take the teachings to heart. Therefore, I may change my approach in the future, using different methods to express what I wish to convey."
However, the heart of Practitioner Su is interconnected with the heart of Amitabha Buddha and the hearts of all beings. In truth, he not only sees what beings are doing, but his heart also knows exactly how many beings are coming to seek Spiritual Deliverance. Even as they flicker past his mind, he is aware of them. This is what we call 'sensitive awareness.' He then informs the Venerable nearby, 'There are beings arriving,' and they naturally prepare a memorial tablet. On that tablet, one can see clearly the teachings Amitabha Buddha has for these beings, the words the beings themselves have spoken, the details of the tablet, what kind of beings they are, their quantity, and even the names of their representatives. Most of them are seeking peace of mind, purification, and Spiritual Deliverance.
The True Skill of Deliverance
These interactions between the Venerable at the temple and the beings from the spiritual realms are crystal clear. Where can one learn such skills? And what are these skills for? They are used to resolve conflicts and to save beings. If a practitioner does not possess true cultivation, how could they possibly have the means to save beings from the spiritual realms? Moreover, it is often an immeasurable, uncountable, and infinite number of beings who come here seeking Spiritual Deliverance. A single memorial tablet can represent beings from the vastness of the Dharma Realm. Do you have the capacity to bear such a burden? Only because Amitabha Buddha is here can it be done; only because those who have realised their true nature are here can it be done. If people in the human world do not know to come here to seek the Dharma, seek learning, and seek Spiritual Deliverance, are they not like those who 'have eyes but fail to recognise Mount Tai'? In the past, I, Chin Kung, was just like that. I never expected that you all would now be following in my footsteps.
The Wisdom of the Spirit Realm
The spirit realm is clever! The Demon Realm is also learning to be clever now. They know they have committed monstrous crimes. If they do not change their ways, the laws of and cause and effect will be an unbearable burden. The retribution is to be pressed under great mountains, beneath icebergs, to be melted and burned in flames, or to be trapped in the deep layers beneath the road surfaces for tens of millions of levels. Blindness, stupidity—these are the fates of the Demon Realm. Practitioner Su has the ability to manifest these scenes for the Demon Realm to see, and he can even save these beings from the Demon Realm, leaving the demon crowds truly convinced and with nothing left to say. This is true cultivation! This is something achieved by a practitioner in the human world, and everyone should be proud of it!
The Burden of 代眾生苦
Many beings in the Demon Realm were originally dedicated to disturbing practitioners and monastics. When their conduct becomes skewed, gaps appear, allowing the demon crowds to enter their bodies and minds to disturb and obstruct their practice. These demon crowds must also bear the consequences of their karma. However, if the practitioners and monastics themselves had not created the causes, the demon crowds would not be able to enter their bodies. Of course, the practitioners and monastics must also bear their own karmic consequences. Naturally, there are also many demon crowds who come to obstruct Practitioner Su in his work of Spiritual Deliverance and saving beings, causing him physical discomfort. This is what it means to 'bear the suffering for beings,' yet he continues straight ahead, his deliverance completely unaffected. This is what a true practitioner is.
A Message to the Disciples
Today, I originally intended to speak to several disciples currently in the world about the illnesses they carry, especially the situation of spiritual attachment, which is even more important, or to offer them some reminders. I am using this method to express the existence of Chin Kung. Of course, among them are both monastics and Dharma protectors.
In the Pure Land system, everyone has made an indelible contribution. The Buddha’s teachings are based on the heart; the heart is paramount. Generally speaking, everyone is very respectful toward the monastics of the Pure Land school and several very important Dharma protectors. Every single one of them is important, and I cannot be biased. However, their hearts are different. What I mean by 'different hearts' is the level of purity they have attained. From this, one can see the degree of effort they have put in and how much they have harvested. But no matter how one does it, or how much one has done, the most important conclusion is to be able to be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. Therefore, if we look at it from the perspective of the result, everyone has followed me for so many years. Of course, in this regard, I should be considered one of the elders. From the perspective of worldly people, ninety-six can be considered a ripe old age. Among the monastics and lay practitioners, I might be one of the oldest. There may be those who are nearly a hundred, or perhaps there are, and I just do not know yet; that does not matter. These ages no longer matter to me now. What matters is the level of purity of one's spirit. In the world, age is very important, but having lived for so many years, what have you done for the world? What have you contributed? Disciples, you might want to reflect on that.
A Call to Faith
If you have not read this article, or if you read it but do not believe it, it is as if you have not read it at all, is it not? What I have said is as if I have said nothing. However, as I am speaking now, I have taken a look around me. There are some beings gathered here listening, and I am truly grateful to them for giving me a little confidence. There are also some beings applauding me; they are truly kind. Their applause means, 'We have faith in you; you must continue to speak!' Very well, I will continue to speak. I will continue to speak; even if there is only one person listening, I will speak, unless Amitabha Buddha or Practitioner Su says, 'That is enough, take a rest,' then I will rest! This matter can change at any moment.
I know that the time of this interview is in the early morning, and by the time the transcript is compiled, it will be evening. When Practitioner Su reads it out in the evening, at the very least, I know that I have many spiritual friends who will listen to the content of my interview. Many, many of them have already been saved through Spiritual Deliverance. Each batch of beings saved is different. Everyone knows that one can reach the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss from here, so they rush; they rush faster than anyone else, crawling and scrambling to come here to seek Spiritual Deliverance. That is why I say that beings in the spirit realm are much smarter and possess much more Wisdom than beings in the human world.
The Path to the Centre
Having said this, do not think that I am not speaking to the disciples. Every sentence I have said before was spoken to everyone, including the disciples, so I have not strayed from the topic. The subject Amitabha Buddha gave me was 'the disciples.' I was just too embarrassed to call them out. If I called them and they ignored me, where would I, Chin Kung, put my old face? Therefore, I did not name names. I, Chin Kung, have no qualifications to be anyone's master, nor do I have the qualifications to call anyone 'disciples.' At most, this spirit now hangs a name called 'Chin Kung' because that was my name while I was in the world. In truth, the names of this spirit throughout many lives are numerous. Everyone is the same; it is not just me. Therefore, one must broaden one's vision, expand one's mind-capacity, and be compassionate. Monastics must be compassionate; is the fundamental duty of a monastic. Which monastic has not heard the words 'compassion' and 'Wisdom'? The : , Compassion, , and —these should not just be kept in the heart, but truly put into action for the sake of all beings.
At this moment, I am bringing up the two words 'compassion.' Why? Because I know that many of the disciples in this society, regarding the Pure Land, still have their own disciples, followers, and Dharma protectors. Your words and deeds will influence them. If you have the correct views and methods, it will bring them immense benefits, especially regarding the great matter of being reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is the foundation of the Pure Land. If you make the most correct choice and they follow, and they are able to be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss, that is achieved by your compassion. This compassion is pure and good; it is not tainted by personal interests or views. Only when there is no 'self' can one make compassionate, correct, and wise judgments. If the disciples can come to the temple and believe that Amitabha Buddha is here, for them, it is helping them be reborn in the Western Pure Land.
The Shortcut to the Western Land
However, having said that, I, Chin Kung, am also hard to absolve of blame. The teachings the disciples previously received or their past conduct were largely following me. They would also consult my opinions and views. When necessary, I would give them some advice, but for the most part, I gave them autonomy. I, Chin Kung, am ashamed. While I was alive, I led everyone in the field of the Pure Land, and even in the unity of world religions, although I exerted some effort, looking at it now, did these contributions generate help for being reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss? Limited, or none! It is like a circle; its center point is the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. Any point on the circumference of this circle can reach the center, whether by connecting with a straight line or a winding, crooked path. In any case, the circumference can reach the center. However, human life is limited; one must take the most direct shortcut in order to be able to go directly from the circumference to the center in this lifetime and enter the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss.
Although the things I did had a vast and profound influence, if we are talking about this lifetime, because you accepted what I said, you understood the Buddha’s teachings and the Pure Land, and you made a vow to seek the Western Land, but can you reach the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss in this very lifetime? Looking at it now, it seems that what I did was far from the Western Land! Although I let many beings understand the Buddha’s teachings, make vows, and recognise Amitabha Buddha and the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss, as for the most important point—can they be reborn in the Western Pure Land?—I am truly ashamed. Even I myself cannot reach it.
In this sense, the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre is absolutely vital—it is of the utmost importance! It sits right at the very centre of the circle, and that centre is the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss. Everything I, Chin Kung, did in the past, no matter how vast it seemed or how many people knew of it—even if the entire world, religious figures, national leaders, and prime ministers knew of it—I was merely working on the circumference of that circle, far removed from the centre! To put it plainly, while my fame grew significantly, it provided no direct help for rebirth in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss. How could I have the face to return and meet Namo Amituofo? Yet, this sacred ground here at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia is now directly connected to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss; it is, in effect, the Western Land itself. It has already delivered immeasurable and boundless spirits.
A Place of Emergency Rescue
For those who understand the need to chant Namo Amituofo, Namo Amituofo is right here to lead everyone, and naturally, they can enter the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss directly. For those who do not yet know how to chant Namo Amituofo but possess good roots and , they have now encountered the Buddha and Practitioner Su—the Buddha Su—through these Causal Conditions. Even if they are not yet fully prepared, having made this connection, those who do not yet know to chant Namo Amituofo can still be saved and guided into the Celestial Realm or the human world. They will not be sent back to where they came from, nor will they fall into the ghost realm to become wandering spirits or lonely ghosts. In this light, this place is truly a site for emergency rescue—a rescue station for rebirth in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss—yet everyone is still just wandering around the edges. I have spoken so earnestly, yet no one has come inside. Does everyone no longer need emergency rescue? Can everyone save themselves? Can you truly save yourself? Think about it: if you cannot even reach the Western Land, how can you talk about delivering other beings? If you wish to deliver them to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, you must hurry back here for emergency rescue!
The Illusion of Time and Reliance
Human life is limited; you cannot live as long as you wish. Your current body exists within the Five Turbidities and Evil World of this worldly realm, not in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, where there is Infinite Life and Infinite Light, and where you can live as long as you desire. If one wishes to descend into the human world to deliver beings, one simply reports to Namo Amituofo, and with His approval, one may descend. This worldly realm is quite different. Perhaps everyone has been spoiled by me, Chin Kung. This is my fault, and it is no wonder I would fall into the hells, thinking that having an old Venerable to rely on was enough—thinking, 'I have a teacher to rely on, and the teacher will take us to the Western Land.' The teacher is no longer in the human world. When I was here, I let you rely on me and led you along, but it is a great pity that I did not lead you to the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre to find Namo Amituofo. This is my greatest regret while I was alive, and it is also a great pity that I did not lead you to realise your true nature. Without realising your true nature, you cannot save yourself.
The Teacher Who Realised His True Nature
Fortunately, from among those listening to my Dharma talks, an awakened being emerged: Practitioner Su, the Buddha Su. It is fortunate that such a person appeared—I cannot call him my disciple because he has realised his true nature; by rights, he is my teacher. As I mentioned yesterday, in terms of spirituality, one who has realised their true nature is my teacher. Although in worldly terms, I can still pass as his teacher—after all, he only began to learn Buddhism and chant the Buddha's name after listening to my lectures—I am now in a spiritual state, so it is not appropriate for me to call Practitioner Su, the Buddha Su, a disciple. When I refer to him now, I place 'Practitioner Su' first, as I did when I was in the world, but now that I am in a spiritual state, I address him as the Buddha Su.
The Reality of Spiritual Illness
The words I am speaking now are as if I am speaking to my disciples. If they still regard me as their teacher, then alas! It is good if they hear it; if they do not, then that is their own fate. Honestly, looking at it now, whether it is any of my disciples or students, they all carry illnesses and have spiritual attachments. These illnesses include sickness of the heart, sickness of , and even their own spirits have become ill.
Now that I am no longer in the human world, the next person to follow is the one respected by everyone, the leader of the entire Pure Land system. One can follow him; indeed, in the , he has truly set a fine example. Whether in chanting, deportment, spirit, or the delivery of beings, he is truly someone everyone can learn from.
The Test of the Final Moment
However, regarding the degree of purification within the heart and the level of one's meditative concentration in chanting the Buddha's name, can one truly withstand the various tests at the final moment of life? This is a matter that cannot be relaxed for even a single moment. Do not think that because you have practised enough, it is sufficient. The study of the Buddha's teachings has no end. Even if you are someone whom everyone admires and respects, you will often develop arrogance because of it. This so-called arrogance means you have neglected the need to move toward a deeper, more purified, and purely good spiritual elevation.
But regardless of what is said, let us return to this: who is the one in charge within this body? Is it your true self? We have learned from Namo Amituofo, and we also know from Teacher Practitioner Xia Lianju that a complete spirit must possess the three hun souls and seven po souls. Is your own spirit still there? Are the three hun souls and seven po souls still present? To realise your true nature, your three hun souls and seven po souls must be complete. Only when the three hun souls and seven po souls are complete can the actions of your body truly be what you yourself intend to do. In other words, only in a state where the body, mind, and spirit are complete is it possible to realise your true nature.
The Tragedy of the Displaced Spirit
As for the current disciples and followers—the scope is too broad, so let us narrow it down for a moment. Looking at the state of the disciples' three hun souls and seven po souls, I see that many are not completely present within their bodies. Generally speaking, the true self must be within the body, as this true self is the primary state of your spirituality. If the true self is not within the body, then this body is not being controlled by you at all. Even so, your body still performs all sorts of actions, and it can do them very well, very convincingly, but it is not you who is in control. This is a very tragic thing, because you will absolutely not be able to reach the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, unless you are as fortunate as I am to have a disciple who has realised his true nature go to the hells to save you, and unless Practitioner Su, the Buddha Su, is still around when you leave this world. I have heard him say that he will save those of the 'Wu' generation, because he goes down to the hells every day to deliver beings and to observe the judgments of the Yama Kings. To him, this is something he does every day. This is his skill; do not disbelieve it.
The Boundless Nature of the Dharma
I see it clearly. Unless you say that I, the Venerable Master Chin Kung, am lying, then I have no other way to respond. If you say that, I cannot change it; I can only say what I have seen. The Dharma Body of Practitioner Su, the Buddha Su, can descend into the hells to deliver the beings there. If he wishes to return to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, he will even bring the Ten Yama Kings of the hells back with him. Have you ever heard of such a thing? This is his skill! Do not find it jarring when you hear this and think, 'How is that possible?' There are too many things that are 'impossible'! Do not be overly confident, thinking that what you know is the only truth and that what you do not know or have not heard of cannot be true. Such seekers of the Dharma, Buddhist practitioners, monastics, Dharma protectors, and followers have only a limited degree of practice, and you may even get stuck right there. Remember that the Buddha's teachings are boundless.
What you have seen, heard, learned, and known in this life is too limited. Furthermore, when you add your personality, temper, selfishness, or ego-attachment and views—let us not even speak of too many profound Buddhist terms—those things you can say, but cannot use, or those things you can say, but you possess every one of them, how much have you actually changed? If you speak of them, you must change for it to be effective and useful. If you learn them, it must be of help. If you know so many terms but have not changed a single thing, and even become more self-reliant and arrogant as you grow older, it is actually a harm to yourself.
The Danger of a Comfortable Environment
Because the environment of the Pure Land school is so good, and because people trust the reputation of the Pure Land school, it has made everyone's heart lazy—arrogant and lax. This so-called laxity is not in the spreading of the Dharma, but in one's own practice and purification. The opposite of this is contamination—being contaminated by the and , relaxing oneself. Perhaps, unknowingly, I, Chin Kung, am also to blame. When I was alive, I saw it, and when I gave lectures, I spoke of it, but because I did not name names, everyone did not feel that I was talking about them, and you yourselves did not feel that you had this problem. In fact, I was talking about you, but you did not know that you needed to change your ways, and you will be found by your and suffer and endure pain.
And now? Should I name names and say who I am talking about? That would only be me, Chin Kung, slapping my own face, because no one would pay attention or listen. Therefore, I am using a general statement now. The general meaning is that it is not aimed at any one individual, but what I am saying is something you may all possess. Do not think that you do not have these problems. Perhaps I, Chin Kung, have spoiled everyone and provided such a good environment that you cannot see your own problems.
The Comfort of the Buddha-Name
In truth, there is no reason to blame everyone, because I myself have not reached the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss! Every time I think of this, my speech becomes softer, and my voice becomes weaker. But at least my spreading of the Dharma has transmitted the Buddha's teachings into the hearts of people in many countries, or into the ear- of beings who have heard it, planting this . Whether it is a spirit, a human, or even matter—for matter also has spirituality—in this lifetime or in future lives, there is an opportunity to attain Buddhahood and be reborn in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is a point that brings me, Chin Kung, comfort. At the very least, my Buddha-name, 'Namo Amituofo,' has been recorded in Buddha-chanting machines. Those who have the opportunity to receive this Dharma Jewel and the opportunity to open it and listen, hearing it enter their ear-consciousness—they are saved. This matter has finally been accomplished; it is too important, this Buddha-name is too important! Knowing its importance, those who know how to use it will be reborn in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss in this very lifetime. Do not wait for future lives, for you will have to endure so much more suffering, still rolling within the six realms of rebirth, suffering the pain of birth, aging, sickness, and death! And still waiting for others to save you! It is best, truly best, if you can be reborn in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss yourself in this lifetime; then you will not have come to this world in vain.
The general situation I have described applies to the disciples and students who usually chant the Buddha's name, recite the Sutras, and perform prostrations, but have not changed their personality or habits. Honestly, the merit from doing these tasks can bring peace to one's heart, allow one to gain something from it, acquire some meditative concentration, and understand the Forty-Eight Vows of Namo Amituofo, as well as recognise the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss. Some are truly doing their practice earnestly, and one can see that their appearance and behaviour have become much gentler.
The true benefit, one that must be cultivated from the very depths of your heart, is the necessity to change your personality and habits—what we call the 'self,' personal ego, and selfishness. You must learn to resolve the conflicts you have with all beings. If you can go a step further and help these beings find their way to the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss, you will significantly reduce the obstacles that stand in your way when the time comes for your own rebirth. This is of paramount importance; it is precisely the 'emergency rescue' work that Practitioner Su is performing at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre. I have observed many disciples, Dharma protectors, lay practitioners, and volunteers who are still suffering from illnesses. They are still walking the path of birth, aging, sickness, and death—this is the path of samsara. The true path to the Western Land is one where you do not grow old, not get sick, and the spirit does not die. Look at my own spirit, now residing in the of the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre, Australia. From here, I will eventually enter the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is what it means to have a spirit that does not die.
The Urgent Path of Deliverance
As long as you still have a breath of life in this human world, there is still time to turn things around. You might say, 'I am already old and sick; how can I return to a state of not growing old or getting sick?' It is true that what has already happened cannot be undone. However, in this very moment, if you can truly take my words to heart, or come here to seek this emergency rescue, there is a genuine opportunity to halt the progression of aging and illness. Do not let yourself continue to wither away; do not let the sickness take further hold of you. Namo Amituofo is here, and He is the Great Physician! He has the power to save you. But even though the Great Physician is present, if you do not step forward to receive the treatment, even He cannot help you.
The Great Physician is Waiting
My time today is limited. I am not addressing any one person by name; please take these words as a general teaching for everyone. Very well, I shall conclude here. Namo Amituofo.
Shi Chin Kung, with palms joined in reverence.
Residing at the Western Dharma-Nature Land of the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre, Australia.
