This is a record of an interview with the late Venerable Zhu Yun, who sought at the Hsiang Kuang Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now resides in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. This account reflects upon his life and his journey to deliverance. Recorded by the chief writer, Lay Practitioner Li Jiaxian, on June 16, 2017.
Lay Practitioner Li Jiaxian: "I offer ten prostrations to the Buddha and respectfully invite the late Venerable Zhu Yun to speak. , in His great , created the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. Practitioner Su, with her boundless compassion, has delivered Venerable Zhu Yun to this Western Pure Land. Could you please explain the causal conditions that led you to the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre and the process of your rebirth? Namo Amituofo."
Venerable Zhu Yun speaks:
"Namo Amituofo. I once considered myself a person of kind nature, intelligent and sharp. I was well-versed in the Buddhist sutras and the teachings of the . I was an active promoter of the Pure Land Dharma Gate, encouraging everyone to chant Namo Amituofo, to perform prostrations, and to participate in the seven-day Buddha-name chanting retreats. I truly believed that by leading others in these practices—in the diligent retreats, the walking meditation, and the three thousand prostrations—I was doing my utmost to propagate the Buddha's teachings. Under my guidance, both monastics and lay practitioners were incredibly diligent; they endured such hardship that even when their knees were raw and bleeding, no one complained. I was convinced that such rigorous practice would ensure that everyone could attain rebirth in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss with ease."
The Trap of External Diligence
"However, in my later years, I became physically exhausted and suffered a stroke. After being hospitalised and slowly recovering, I became even more obsessed with leaving behind my own written works. My health continued to decline due to the stroke; I felt as though my chest and throat were being blocked. When I finally passed away in the repentance room of the Lotus Society, I fell into the heart-gouging hell and the upside-down hanging hell to suffer retribution. The agony in those hells was beyond description. Suddenly, I heard a voice calling out: 'Venerable Zhu Yun, where are you?' Following the Buddha-light, I arrived at the Hsiang Kuang Buddha-land. It was only after Practitioner Su sent me to the to listen to the teachings that I truly understood: the Pure Land Dharma Gate is about cultivating a pure, unpolluted heart."
"No matter how diligently one prostrates—even until one's head is broken and bleeding—or how much one chants until the throat is hoarse, if the habits of the heart remain unchanged, it is all in vain. True practice is about cultivating a pure heart that remains untouched by the and of the external world. When my disciples showed me respect and adoration, it was actually a test of whether my heart would waver. When lay practitioners offered me large red envelopes and precious items, it was a test of my inner stability. Although I appeared 'unmoved' on the outside, my heart was fluctuating within. I knew I was being polluted by the Five Desires and the Six Dusts, yet I did not cover it up; I allowed these attachments to grow until I could no longer extricate myself."
The Hidden Corruption of the Heart
"In my dreams, I saw disciples and monastics kneeling before me in reverence, offering me vast amounts of wealth, and I accepted these offerings with . Because of this, my three hun souls and seven po souls were gradually pulled away. I was arrogant, believing myself to be more intelligent than others, and I took pride in the books I had authored. Deep down, I looked down upon certain other monastics, using clever words to criticise them. In my dreams, I saw myself as a 'great master' whom no one could compare to, and this arrogance eventually led to my physical decline, my stroke, and my death. It was only here, listening to the Dharma, that I realised I had merely maintained an external facade while hosting these retreats. I thought I was knowledgeable, but I had never truly delved into the essence of the sutras. I thought I had reached a certain level of cultivation, but my inner habits remained completely unchanged, leading me to the hells upon my death."
"I am deeply grateful to Practitioner Su for rescuing me from hell. After listening to the teachings, I finally understood that Practitioner Su is a true practitioner. She has compassionately delivered countless spirits, opening up layer upon layer of space and revealing the mysteries of the universe. I now know that our three hun souls and seven po souls are all tied to our greed, anger, ignorance, arrogance, and our attachment to the Five Desires and the Six Dusts. Our , who manifest as the people or things we love most, pull at our souls, causing specific parts of our bodies to manifest illnesses—such as cancer, tumours, strokes, or kidney failure. All diseases arise from this very cause. I, Zhu Yun, am ashamed. I did not transmit the true essence of the Pure Land to my disciples; I did not teach them to cultivate the mind and change their habits. I only pushed them to prostrate and chant blindly. Because they did not change their habits, they could not be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. I repent for not teaching them to correct their minds and bodies. I also fell ill, leading others to believe that sickness and death are 'natural'—but this is a grave error. A true practitioner does not fall ill; they can predict the time of their passing and attain rebirth with ease. That is the mark of a true practitioner: to truly let go and attain freedom in rebirth. Namo Amituofo."
The Root of
Lay Practitioner Li Jiaxian: "Namo Amituofo. Venerable Zhu Yun, may I ask, which lifetime's karmic creditors were responsible for your stroke?"
Venerable Zhu Yun speaks:
"Seven lifetimes ago, I was a village woman. My husband's family was not wealthy; he farmed to support the whole family. From morning until night, I would prepare breakfast and then go to the fields to help with the farming. We relied on the heavens for a good harvest; if it did not rain, the rice would lack water, the harvest would fail, and we would have to live in extreme poverty for the entire year. One year, we faced a severe drought. I tried to communicate with my neighbours to see if they could share some water to irrigate our fields, but I was rejected. Everyone was struggling to survive; no one was kind enough to share their water with us. My heart filled with evil thoughts. I thought, 'Since everyone is so selfish, if we are to die, let us all die together.' I hardened my heart and poisoned the water source, ensuring their crops would not survive. In doing so, I killed countless beings in the water—bacteria, earthworms, tadpoles—none were spared. I carried this massive karmic debt. In this lifetime, because of my arrogance, those karmic creditors found me. They surged through my blood, causing my stroke. This is the fruit of the I created. I repent for my greed and for harming these sentient and insentient beings. Here, I sincerely repent to all those beings for the karma I created out of ignorance. I am truly sorry. Namo Amituofo."
A Final Warning to the Sangha
Lay Practitioner Li Jiaxian: "Namo Amituofo. Venerable Zhu Yun, you were able to become an abbot in this lifetime and were worshipped by so many followers. What great did you cultivate in your past lives to achieve this?"
Venerable Zhu Yun speaks:
"I am ashamed. In several past lives, I was also a monastic. I reached certain levels of cultivation, but because I did not fully change my personality, it was like 'pressing grass with a stone'—when the test came, my ignorance and anger would flare up again. In the end, I failed to attain rebirth. During my practice, I gave lectures and formed Dharma affinities everywhere. I practised the Pure Land Dharma Gate and even helped fellow monastics attain rebirth through chanting. Yet, I failed to change my own habits at the final moment; the manifested, and I could not attain rebirth. I reincarnated and encountered the Buddha's teachings again, and again I encountered the Pure Land Dharma Gate. I tried my best to promote it, leading retreats and chanting, hoping that everyone under my guidance could attain rebirth. But one must truly understand the Pure Land—to completely purify this heart, to be pure and unpolluted, to have . I, however, did not change my habits and polluted my heart, failing to attain rebirth in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss."
"It was because of the blessings I cultivated as a monastic in past lives that I formed many good affinities, which allowed me to become an abbot in this lifetime and have so many followers supporting me. I am ashamed that I failed to attain rebirth and fell into the hells to suffer retribution. I am making my process public on the internet so that monastics and practitioners can use it as a mirror. Remember: a monastic must not be tainted by even the slightest pollution. There are many monastics and practitioners at the gates of hell. Remember this, remember this well! Namo Amituofo."
Lay Practitioner Li Jiaxian: "Thank you, Venerable Zhu Yun, for accepting this interview. Namo Amituofo."
Interview content recorded by Lay Practitioner Li Jiaxian / Data compiled by Lay Practitioner Lai Boya.
