This is a record of an interview with Bao Zheng, the legendary judge of the Song Dynasty, who sought Spiritual Deliverance at the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia. He now resides in the Western Land of Nature. This account reflects upon his life approximately 964 years ago. Recorded by the chief writer, Venerable Shi Faru, on March 28, 2026.
Bao Zheng speaks:
“Namo Amituofo. I am Bao Zheng, who once served as an official during the Song Dynasty.
My story is surely familiar to many of you. These tales have been passed down through the generations, and the classic cases I presided over have been adapted into folk operas. Indeed, the process of resolving those cases was often complex and mysterious. Yet, behind these intriguing stories and dramatic twists, has everyone truly understood the principles of conducting oneself with integrity and uprightness? As the saying goes, ‘Those who commit many unrighteous acts will surely bring about their own destruction.’ This is a universal principle that has remained unchanged since ancient times.
The Universal Principle of Justice
In other words, every event in this world operates according to hidden rules and laws; from the perspective of the universal principle, this is absolute. This applies to our daily lives and to every matter, large or small, within society. When I served as an official, I did not intentionally seek the reputation of being ‘noble.’ Serving the people and bringing prosperity to the local region was simply the fundamental duty of a local magistrate. When faced with complex and tangled cases, one must naturally possess a standard of judgment that is sufficiently calm and independent of various factions to understand the truth of the case clearly and effectively. If one is interfered with by outside forces or different political cliques, or if one is burdened by personal moral flaws or private emotions, the final judgment will inevitably deviate from fairness and justice. However, I also knew that ‘humans are not sages’ and that ‘it is difficult even for an upright official to judge domestic disputes.’ I was not always able to grasp the full truth of a case with one hundred percent certainty. In ancient times, the collection of evidence was quite limited, and there were no auxiliary tools to judge the credibility of witness testimonies; I had to rely solely on my own impartial judgment.
The Burden of Integrity
All I could do was eliminate the various factors that might influence my fair judgment. Therefore, I remained uncorrupted, stern, and avoided private associations with anyone. This was to strictly prevent various forces from intervening and influencing my decisions. I can say that I was very fortunate in my life to have served in the imperial court and to have been promoted. This meant that the ruler at the time, Emperor Renzong of Song, was indeed a wise monarch.
He knew how to appoint people based on their merits and understood that I was genuinely offering various strategies and impeachments for the sake of the country. Regarding the various corrupt officials, I did not fear their power or influence. Such strong enforcement of the law came from the support of the country and the people, as well as the backing of the Emperor and many righteous ministers in the court. Only then could I possess such authority to govern each region according to the principles of the law. The most famous cases, which have been passed down to the world, are those I presided over during my time at the Kaifeng Prefecture.
The Truth Behind the Legends
The reason for my fame is largely because I did not fear the power of various factions and tried my best to make judgments independent of their influence. Because these cases often involved the royal family and high-ranking officials, the complexity of their schemes and the extent of their inhumanity were far more severe than ordinary cases. When investigating and presiding over these matters, I always reminded myself to detach from my own subjective judgments and prejudices to truly understand the real face of a case. As for my own safety, I took it lightly. After all, if I could not uphold justice and ensure the laws of the Great Song were implemented, it would be better to die at the hands of rebels than to live in the court while harming the people.
In truth, many of the operas and literary works of later generations are a mix of fact and fiction, with many stories added by playwrights as part of my legacy. However, this does not really matter. The most important thing is to pass on the philosophy I held while serving as an official: when serving in the court, one must be meticulous in observing even the smallest details regarding unrighteous acts. One cannot blindly seek to put people to death, as that does not conform to the Middle Way, but one must ensure that the law is clearly executed. Otherwise, if scholars do not fear the laws of the Song Dynasty and refuse to obey them, it will only cause more social chaos. Therefore, the intensity of law enforcement must be carefully calibrated. For those who are truly corrupt and have lost their humanity, the laws of the Great Song must be strictly enforced and the death penalty applied, so that the people can believe that the law has the power to be executed.
The Law and the Heart
To make the people believe that the law is not something that can be exploited or used to harbor evil, but rather a system that determines life and death based on an individual’s actions and words, one must have a deterrent effect to prevent future generations from challenging the law. As for the saying that ‘it is difficult for an upright official to judge domestic disputes,’ if there are various factions involved and private interference, it is inevitable that the judgment will be biased.
Therefore, I did not associate closely with scholars, and I strictly ordered my descendants that if anyone were found to be corrupt, they would be expelled from the family. This was the fundamental requirement I chose and had to fulfill to maintain fair, just, and incorruptible judgments. Serving as an official, the greatest fear is corruption, so I was extremely strict with myself regarding the word ‘greed.’
In my daily life, I maintained only the most basic requirements. If I had excessive desires, it would have been easy for various forces to cater to my preferences, find loopholes, and influence my judgments. These were the things I was very cautious about. Even after I was promoted, I reminded myself that having presided over so many high-ranking officials, I must never commit the same mistakes they did. Otherwise, I would become a soul under my own blade—would that not be highly ironic?
Service in the Spirit Realm
After serving as a judge for so many years, I passed away in Kaifeng, the city I governed, during a severe illness. After I passed, I remained in the space where I had presided over cases in the Kaifeng Prefecture. I became one of the judges in the ghost realm of the underworld. Although my status was not equal to that of the Yama Kings, I served as a judge in the underworld for the entire Kaifeng and capital region, continuing to preside over cases of all sizes. In the underworld and the human world, the situations are actually very similar.
People in the human world have their own concerns, and if they violate the law due to human-centered thinking and are executed, the same applies in the underworld. However, the laws of the underworld are actually ‘Underworld Laws,’ which are also known as the universal principles. If one violates the universal principles, it is not a matter of what the law prescribes, but a natural necessity to repay the , which requires one to suffer in the hells. After the term of punishment is over, one is transferred elsewhere.
This is somewhat different from judgments in the human world. In the human world, it is often difficult to make precise judgments due to insufficient information, and sometimes the intensity and focus of the judgment vary due to the judge’s subjective discretion. However, in the trials of the underworld, every little detail is extremely clear. Even the slightest mental note or fluctuation at the moment of the crime is completely recorded and explained in the most detailed manner. This is the difference in how cases are judged in the underworld.
The Path to Repentance
The duration of the punishment depends on whether one has realized their mistake and is willing to repent. If one is stubborn, insists that they are not wrong, or constantly complains about heaven and others, finding many reasons and excuses, then no amount of reasoning can reduce the sentence. The universal principle is exactly this: every single bit of what one has created must be repaid by oneself. This is true in both karma and nature. The sentence in hell is determined the moment the sin is committed, the moment there is no remorse in the heart. Some who are punished have repented, or after suffering extreme pain in hell, they become willing to wake up. However, most sinners do not have such thoughts, nor can they understand where they went wrong. Only in constant pain might a trace of remorse arise. This is the phenomenon I have seen in the underworld for many years. However, as time passes, one can see that the degree of malice in modern human nature is even worse than in the past. For me, this is truly astonishing; I never imagined that the human heart could mutate to such a degree.
In the cases I presided over in the past—those famous stories and public cases recorded and passed down—one could see that even with such wicked characters, the extent of their evil was like the villains in the stories: acting for their own selfish interests, which was considered a heinous crime at the time. Yet, those evil thoughts and wicked natures seem to be commonplace for modern people. Anywhere, as long as it can benefit them, it seems they will stop at nothing. This truly makes me feel very fearful. If the modern human world is like this, then you can understand that the intensity and duration of the punishments they must endure in hell after death are far longer and heavier than those who entered hell in earlier times.
The Light of the Buddha’s Teachings
This is the result of not knowing the law and the universal principles. If one could understand the universal principles and know how to follow moral foundations, one would not stop at nothing and do whatever one wanted for one’s own benefit. I have served in the underworld and the ghost realm for nearly a thousand years, and I have long heard of and known the importance of the Buddha’s teachings. However, there are few people in the world who sing the praises of and propagate the Buddha’s teachings, which is a great pity. Without the education of the ancient sages and the education of the Buddha’s teachings, it becomes very difficult for people to follow the law, be law-abiding, and bring benefits to the people.
In the last ten years, the Buddha’s teachings have begun to be propagated in the world again, which is a very happy thing for both the underworld and the human world. After all, with education, everyone can avoid many wrong behaviors and will not have to suffer punishment for creating these sins. The influx of these True Teachings comes from the Hsiang Kuang Pure Land Buddhist Centre in Australia, Namo Amituofo, and the salvation team led by Practitioner Su. The scriptures and Dharma talks taught by Practitioner Su are very famous in the underworld. Many spirit realm beings listen to Practitioner Su’s teachings at all times and have developed a heart of repenting. Understanding the Buddha’s teachings allows them to realize how wrong and outrageous their actions were during their lives, leading them to develop a heart of repenting and changing their ways. This is also a great help to human beings.
A New Home in the Dharma-Nature Land
I am currently in the Henan region of China, serving as a judge in the underworld. There are many cases of all sizes to preside over, and I am also constantly counseling spirit realm beings, hoping they can come into contact with the Buddha’s teachings and Namo Amituofo. Just a few months ago, a golden light shone down, penetrating various spaces and opening up my underworld courtroom in Henan. At that moment, I perceived that my opportunity had matured. My term of service in the underworld had ended, and I could go to the Western Land of Dharma Nature. I followed the golden light and entered the Western Land of Dharma Nature. Looking back on my past life and the days of presiding over cases in the ghost realm and the underworld while in the Dharma-Nature Land, it is truly sigh-inducing. In fact, why is it necessary for a judge to preside over trials? It is because people commit mistakes and do not know how to repent, nor do they know right from wrong, so a judge is needed to make the decision.
However, if there were Buddha’s teachings and the moral education of the ancient sages, so that people in their hearts understood what can be done and what cannot be done, why would there be a need for the final legal procedure of a judicial trial? This means that most people generally do not understand morality and the universal principles, nor do they know the consequences of violating the universal principles. This is the true root cause. If one could start from these aspects, there would be far fewer unnecessary trials. If people could spontaneously follow the universal principles, they would naturally not violate the laws of the imperial court, nor would they harm others. By reducing many conflicts, one would naturally not waste a large amount of manpower and resources to preside over complex cases.
The Equality of Cause and Effect
When I served as an official, I brought many social disorders to light and corrected them. Behind these public cases, many people only cared about how the powerful and wealthy were not following the law and how they abused their status and identity to violate the laws of the Song Dynasty, and how I broke these disorders one by one. However, the problems of the human world are equal for both commoners and the powerful. The fundamental problem for everyone is that they do not believe in the laws of karma and cause and effect, and they do not believe that doing things against their conscience will be punished. The reckoning of cause and effect is many times clearer than the law. However, people do not believe in reincarnation and do not know that their actions today will eventually return to them as retribution. Although we do not know when it will happen, everything we encounter now is the return of what we created in the past or in past lives. If everyone could understand this principle, why would they risk breaking the law and creating immeasurable and boundless karma?
Listening to the teachings in the Dharma-Nature Land for several days, I truly admire the vastness of the Buddha’s teachings; it is truly far beyond the law and judgment. When I served as an official, I was clean and self-disciplined, maintaining a cool head just for the sake of fair judgment. However, the fairness of the Buddha’s teachings is even greater. In the face of cause and effect, all things are equal. Only the education of the Buddha’s teachings can wake people up from the Five Turbidities and Evil World, make them understand that everything in this world is an illusion, and understand that this body is fake. There is no need to commit crimes for the sake of this fake body, or even to face each other in court. If one is judged and feels unfair, the cycle continues, and there is no end to the suffering in the hells.
The True Value of Life
In fact, if one truly accepts the Buddha’s teachings, people can be law-abiding from the bottom of their hearts, rather than just on the surface. Human laws can only restrain people on the surface, while the Buddha’s teachings can educate people to change their character and avoid creating boundless sins based on their own personality and emotions. When I was alive, I was known for being impartial. However, impartiality is one thing; to have a fair judgment, one must fully grasp all the details of the case, be as objective as possible, and eliminate personal subjective judgment. In this regard, I did not do enough. In presiding over many cases, when I encountered insufficient information and had to make my own decisions, I still had my own subjective judgments. That is why I attracted a large number of spiritual attachments in my later years.
Now, looking back from the Dharma-Nature Land, I realize that even with the most noble and selfless approach, if there is the slightest subjectivity in the judgment that violates the universal principles, it still interferes with the karmic entanglements between the two parties. As a judge, I also had to bear such consequences. If I had the education of the Buddha’s teachings at that time, I could have clearly understood that the crux of the matter between the two parties was nothing more than a false illusion. If I could have regained my original nature and understood the true thoughts in others’ hearts, I would not have been deceived by the appearances. Through heart-to-heart communication between the two parties, I could have made more precise judgments. However, for me at that time, this was something I had never heard of. I never thought that ‘mind-Dharma’ could be used to preside over cases, restore people’s innocence, and put both parties at ease. This was something I had never thought of.
The Ultimate Destination
Listening to the teachings in the Dharma-Nature Land for several days, I also realized that the Buddha’s teachings require one to let go of all conditions. Even if there is the slightest bit that one cannot let go of, it will affect one’s destination after death. I must have been too attached to presiding over cases and making judgments, thinking that this was the true way to serve the people. However, I did not know that even if there were many correct judgments in the human world, one still could not escape reincarnation. Even if one spoke many principles and persuaded many people, it is not as meaningful as helping people escape this worldly realm and helping them be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is my deepest realization in the Dharma-Nature Land.
Looking back at the various judgments I made, although fair judgments brought people trust in the law, the effect of ‘killing the chicken to warn the monkey’ made people fear and respect the law on the surface, but they did not fundamentally change their character and behavior from the heart, nor did they truly understand the universal principles. Truly putting in the work from the heart, changing one’s every word and action, and even becoming a law-abiding citizen of the Great Song from the bottom of one’s heart is much more meaningful than going to the government office to file a complaint and then being forced to accept it. I can say that I perfectly realized the limited methods of the human world to preside over cases, and I also interpreted how to be a good official and an upright official to serve the people.
However, what Practitioner Su has realized is the ultimate method of Namo Amituofo, which truly helps human beings, allowing them to find the true value of life while they are alive and to have a true home—the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss—after they die. This is the true root and foundation of the Buddha’s teachings. This is more meaningful than being an upright or good official in the human world. After all, no matter how upright or good an official is, they still cannot help people escape reincarnation. Even if one lives according to the principles in daily life, one still does not know where one will go after death. Therefore, what the human world truly needs is not a local official who can judge principles clearly, but a team that can truly follow the Pure Land education of Namo Amituofo, operate accordingly, and actively promote the education of the Buddha’s teachings. Such a team is what people truly need.
A Final Plea
I am now just a spirit, and I no longer have the opportunity to serve the people of the Song Dynasty. In fact, the Song Dynasty has passed for a thousand years, and a thousand years is just a blink of an eye for various spaces. The cases that are being argued about now, no matter how complex, are just passing clouds. No matter how clearly they are investigated, it only increases one’s attachments. People in the world always regard me as an image of fairness and justice and worship me as the God of Justice. However, the universal principles operate naturally without the slightest deviation. Yet, many people do not believe in cause and effect, do not believe in morality, and worship me, Bao Zheng, as the God of Justice. If you truly believe in my impartiality, are you also willing to believe in the universal principles and cause and effect that I speak of?
The Truth and the righteous path are the laws that operate in the universe. Only if people can truly be law-abiding can they have a place in this universe. And the destination of this spirit must also follow the true universal principles, which is the Buddha’s teachings of Namo Amituofo, to give the spirit a good home and be reborn in the Western Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss. This is my heartfelt advice. Serving as an official for decades, what I could truly do to help society was only to make people believe that there are still laws and systems to follow in this world. But in fact, these laws and systems cannot help people solve the fundamental problems of birth, aging, sickness, and death. I certainly could not bring this concept to everyone when I was alive, but I have now learned the Buddha’s teachings, so it depends on whether you are willing to believe me once more.
The above is my experience as I speak from the Dharma-Nature Land. I am grateful to Namo Amituofo and Practitioner Su for giving me this opportunity to counsel the people of the world.
